Wine photographed in a rare style -- PROBLEM SOLVED!

[Mike Buckley]

This is my third attempt at making a photo of white wine using a black background, which I explained in my first thread is a rarity. I used a slightly different lighting and post-processing technique to make my second photo, which I like better than the first one.

The reason for making the third photo shown below is that I was still unhappy with the look of the wine in that it looked more like cream or milk to me than wine. I realized today that if bubbles were floating on the surface, which happens regularly with wine at our dinner tables, the bubbles would be a clue for our brains that the liquid indeed is wine. I'm happier with this version than the first two versions.

One could easily argue that I should have waited to present the photo shown below and not bother presenting the first two. However, I seriously doubt that I would have gotten to this third photo without discussion in the threads about the first two. So, thank you to all of you who helped me think things through!

[Donald]

Does it help or just confuse things if I say that the original, back in the first thread, is, for me, by far and away, the best image? It's the strongest composition and has got a vibrancy and clarity that I don't think #2 and #3 have got in the same way.

Sorry if that's not a particularly helpful contribution.

[Stagecoach]

One could easily argue that I should have waited to present the photo shown below and not bother presenting the first two. However, I seriously doubt that I would have gotten to this third photo without discussion in the threads about the first two. So, thank you to all of you who helped me think things through!

You are right Mike, it could be easily argued but there's only one answer.

If we all waited until we took that perfect image, there would be very few images posted here. The sites value of somewhere to learn would diminish and it would become quite boring, in my view.

Whilst I admire the 'perfect' image I equally admire the not so perfect image that has been posted by someone who wants to improve it.

[Mike Buckley]

Go to your room, Donald!

Seriously, your contribution, as always, is very helpful. It proves that each of us has different preferences. I won't be the least bit surprised to learn that some people favor the first photo, some the second and some the third.

Thank you also to Grahame!

[bnnrcn]

Hi Mike. I have to agree with Donald about your very first image being the best. Because the shooting angle isn't very usual and this makes the image different in your first image and I can't see any defects in that image. The second one is good but it has a usual perspective. I'm not very happy with the third one because of the grey line and bubles at the back part of the wine. It doesn't look very natural to me and that line is actually not so pale grey in your second shot. If you could fix it with PP the image might look better though.

[Brownbear]

Hi Mike,

The 1st image is still my favourite because it is simply exquisite and dances off the page. This one is also lovely and I do prefer the gold tones of the wine in this image (and the little bubbles the front) but for some reason I miss the darker line at the rear of the glass seen the 2nd image. It's amazing how the 2nd and 3rd images are exactly the same except for the wine.

All lovely, but the 1st is especially exquisite, and special because of the optical illusion!

PS Thank you for answering my question about the blue prism colours.

[flashback]

Mike, I just looked at some of your photos on your website and the images you have there of white wine very clearly telegraphs white wine. These with the black backgrounds appear more as lemonade, or maybe chicken broth. It's just not coming across as wine to me. That said, your #43, with the alka seltzer, that appears much more as white wine; is it the way you lit that particular image?

[bnnrcn]

Hi Jack. Mike explained it already in his first thread. If you read post #1 in that thread you will get the answer to your question

Mike, I just looked at some of your photos on your website and the images you have there of white wine very clearly telegraphs white wine. These with the black backgrounds appear more as lemonade, or maybe chicken broth. It's just not coming across as wine to me. That said, your #43, with the alka seltzer, that appears much more as white wine; is it the way you lit that particular image?

[flashback]

Hi Jack. Mike explained it already in his first thread. If you read post #1 in that thread you will get the answer to your question

Roger that. So for me this image just doesn't work that well, but maybe after a glass or three.....

[TonyW]

I think I would prefer the composition of #3, unlike Donald. I also feel like Jack in that the white wine still does not look quite right, but is still a bit milky. Perhaps it is the dark background which makes it different to your other white wine pictures, which don't have the same problem for me. Also, there is a little bit of low level noise in the wine part of the image which I think partly accounts for the milkiness.

It's still a nice image though.

[Bobobird]

For what it is worth - I like all 3. Each has it strong points. I have yet to find a weak point in any 3.

[Mike Buckley]

Wow! You folks really know how to deflate me.

Seriously, one of the characteristics I absolutely love about our community is the open, frank communication. I am thrilled to learn what each of you feels about the three photos whether it be positive, negative or neutral.

I have very disappointing news to announce: I woke up this morning and immediately thought of yet another idea to make the wine look more like what it looks like in our daily lives. I'll try it later today.

[Loose Canon]

I would have to agree that the last two also look to me like milk in a wine glass Mike. If I were shown these two images cold (no explanation or background) that’s what I would think just looking at them. The bubbles on the surface rim of the liquid look good, but it is not by itself a clue that it is wine. Milk, water, lots of liquids will form bubbles that float to the surface when poured into a glass.

One of the main reasons for this is that in the last two the liquid looks totally opaque. We know that white wine is translucent.

Dr. Buckley’s Cure-All is without a doubt the best rendition of the liquid as white wine to my mind.

It was said that the bubbles in the wine gave the wine its color. I think this is true, but only partially. It is the combination of the bubbles and the light reflecting off them that do the trick. The bubbles reflect the light in such a way that the entire volume of liquid is not evenly lit. Because of this one can see a range of tones from completely dark (BG showing through) to nice wine-colored highlights (at the bubbles) and tones in between. We only need to see the hint of wine color to make the connection. Much the same as a glossy surface needs this tonal range to show as glossy (rather than matte), so translucent liquid needs this tonal range to give the visual indication of translucence (rather than opaque).

I get the impression that a reflector was placed behind the liquid in such a way as to cover the entire volume in the glass and the entire reflector lit evenly. We see the entire evenly-lit reflector through the entire volume of liquid and that’s what gives the opaque look to the liquid.

[Loose Canon]

Oh.

Sorry Mike. Must've pulled the trigger on that last at about the same time you did!

[Mike Buckley]

I'll put a spotlight on Tony's first observation to get to the heart of the matter:

Perhaps it is the dark background which makes it different to your other white wine pictures, which don't have the same problem for me.

That's exactly the issue, Tony. There is something about using the dark background that changes how we think of the wine. It might surprise you to realize that the method of photographing the wine (not the glass) in these photos with dark backgrounds is exactly the same as the photos you've seen with the wine displayed against a bright background. When making these three photos, I photographed the wine using a bright background and combined it with the rest of the photo made using a dark background.

I think we are all learning the reason there are so few images of white wine presented with a dark background: most people simply don't like the look of the wine.

Also, there is a little bit of low level noise in the wine part of the image which I think partly accounts for the milkiness.

I'm always fascinated with what I perceive to be a preoccupation on photo web sites with noise. This image was properly exposed at ISO 100 and there is no noise even when viewing the full-size image. My guess is that you're seeing the grain that I added during post-processing. Good eye, Tony! I have studied the look of all photo technologies going back to the birth of photography and I like grain in many circumstances. (I tried adding noise but didn't like the results.) You'll appreciate the irony that I added the grain to make the wine appear less milky.

[Mike Buckley]

Dr. Buckley’s Cure-All is without a doubt the best rendition of the liquid as white wine to my mind.

I agree. (For those not aware of what Terry is referring to, it is this photo of Alka-Seltzer bubbles in the wine.)

It was said that the bubbles in the wine gave the wine its color. I think this is true, but only partially. It is the combination of the bubbles and the light reflecting off them that do the trick. The bubbles reflect the light in such a way that the entire volume of liquid is not evenly lit. Because of this one can see a range of tones from completely dark (BG showing through) to nice wine-colored highlights (at the bubbles) and tones in between. We only need to see the hint of wine color to make the connection.

Completely agreed. Your description is more accurate than mine. Thank you!

I get the impression that a reflector was placed behind the liquid in such a way as to cover the entire volume in the glass and the entire reflector lit evenly.

That's true only for the first image. The reflector wasn't lit perfectly evenly but it was lit relatively evenly. In the other two images, the reflector was lit very unevenly, which produced a slightly greater variety of tonalities in the wine.

[Mike Buckley]

I am posting this link to a photo I made awhile ago of a bottle of Champagne presented with a dark background to add to the discussion. The bottle is made of alternating, swirling bands of clear and frosted glass. Notice that the wine is presented mostly in its darkest tones (the tones of the dark background) in the areas of clear glass and is presented mostly in its brightest tones in the areas of frosted glass.

I believe it's the combined areas of frosted glass that make that photo of white wine on a dark background appear natural.

[bnnrcn]

I didn't mean to deflate you Mike, so sorry about it And I don't think the other members did either.

An idea has come to my mind after reading your comment above. Why don't you use a half-lit black BG like the one in the link in your last post (#17) ?

P.S. I mean only one half-lit black BG and one image, instead of merging two images .

[bnnrcn]

Again me Mike. What I tried to say in my post #18 is that I don't know what colour is underside of the doormat that you used in your shot (the link in post#17) but that set up looks worked fine. So, a similar BG and lighting might be helpful.

[Mike Buckley]

Binnur,

I'll try the idea you suggested but I'm not hopeful. If you look closely at the bottle of champagne, the clear (not frosted) bands of the bottle display mostly black because the wine is translucent enough to allow that happen. The parts of those clear areas of glass that display the color of the wine do so because of the bubbles that are characteristic of champagne. Still wine doesn't have those bubbles.

I'm far more hopeful that using a dark field but lighting part of the background with a bright light will produce desirable results. This photo at my web site is an example. However, that's not the same style as using a solid dark background, which is what I was hoping to achieve from the outset of this little adventure.