Studio lighting -getting started

[krfessl]

Hi, I'm looking for some input/recommendations on studio lighting (D610, SB-700 owner)

I'm looking for a 3 light system, wireless if possible, with individual light controls and modeling light capabilities... I've thought about adding another SB-700 but most reading I do suggests strobes, in the 300-500 w/s range... And about 1k-1.5k cost...

Novatron looks good, Impact looks a bit cheap, but they do have a nice 3 light set for 1k...

What I don't understand, aside from brand recommendation, is how they work with D610 in commander mode, and if it will sync outside the CLS ... I'm really not wanting wires all over with a power source and lights wired to it...

Any helping appreciated!!

[Mike Buckley]

You will probably get more helpful responses if you explain the types of subjects you plan to photograph and the extent to which your equipment needs to be portable. Also confirm for people who aren't familiar with model numbers that you're apparently using a Nikon camera system.

I can only help by mentioning that my Impact light stands and continuous light lamps work very well and have held up well. The context is that they remain in my makeshift studio (don't suffer damage from being constantly transported) and I take excellent care of them.

[IzzieK]

I am the same with Mike. My lighting system stays in my little studio across my den and don't get transported either anywhere. I also have a continuous light lamps with stand and a backdrop support. I only open up whichever light I need depending on whether I like to exercise any lighting effect on my "model"...Fortunately I have three directional lights up on the ceiling on two sides of the room and the window facing southeast...I use my flash for fill light only so far depending on the direction of the lights I use on my model...I don't have an expensive system not because I cannot afford it but because I am just starting on light angles and still identifying different lighting effects. Photographs outside the home, I just use natural light and my Spinlight 360 system, not expensive either.

[PhotomanJohn]

Keith - In response to your question about studio strobes working with the CLS system, they do not. The output of each strobe must be set manually along with the exposure setting on your camera. A flashmeter such as those made by Sekonic would be of great help in setting the individual strobe levels and determining the overall exposure.

There are a number of strobe manufacturers. I currently use moonlights made by Bowens which is a British company that has been in the studio flash business for years and made the first moonlights. They have some well made 400WS units with internal radio triggers along with direct connection and optical slave triggering that would be at the upper end of your price range. These units use the standard Bowens interface to light modifiers which is important as you want to add accessories.

John

[William W]

Hi, I'm looking for some input/recommendations on studio lighting (D610, SB-700 owner)

I'm looking for a 3 light system, wireless if possible, with individual light controls and modeling light capabilities... I've thought about adding another SB-700 but most reading I do suggests strobes, in the 300-500 w/s range... And about 1k-1.5k cost...

Novatron looks good, Impact looks a bit cheap, but they do have a nice 3 light set for 1k...

What I don't understand, aside from brand recommendation, is how they work with D610 in commander mode, and if it will sync outside the CLS ... I'm really not wanting wires all over with a power source and lights wired to it...

Any helping appreciated!!

Price range - Euro / US$ / ???

Are you sure that you want a "Studio Flash Lighting" - or do you want a "Portable Flash Lighting Set"

Assumed that you want a "Studio Flash" and you are talking US$:

In that price range, you'll have fewer functionality options on each of the three heads in the kit than if you put a little more money in the pot and buy only one or possibly two heads which are more elaborately functional and also more powerful.

My advice is: buy good quality, variable power and powerful studio heads and buy fewer of them and also buy fewer accessories in the first purchase: especially if you have little or no experience using studio strobes.

I would suggest that you look at something in the 600Ws to 750Ws as the main head or two main two heads and then around a 400Ws to 500Ws if you need a third; a 4, 5 or 6 stop range is useful.

I'd suggest a Sekonic Flash meter.

Shooting tethered and/or in live view, to a calibrated studio monitor is very useful.

I use Elinchrom Studio Heads, but I have used Bowens and they are very good, too.

***

If you want a "Portable Flash Lighting Set" then it is more important to outline what it is you want to shoot and also the general shooting conditions that you will be in: as with the lighter weight and usually less powerful and less functional portable units (or "starter kits") one must tailor the gear to suit the specific needs to get the most bang for the money outlayed.

WW

[Colin Southern]

My advice is: buy good quality, variable power and powerful studio heads and buy fewer of them and also buy fewer accessories in the first purchase: especially if you have little or no experience using studio strobes.

I would suggest that you look at something in the 600Ws to 750Ws as the main head or two main two heads and then around a 400Ws to 500Ws if you need a third; a 4, 5 or 6 stop range is useful.

I'd suggest a Sekonic Flash meter.

Shooting tethered and/or in live view, to a calibrated studio monitor is very useful.

I use Elinchrom Studio Heads, but I have used Bowens and they are very good, too.

I second all of this!

I too use Elinchrom, and Sekonic in my studio.

One thing to keep in mind is that the heads have a maximum power ... AND a minimum power. And (somewhat surprisingly), the minimum power is also very important because the minimum amount that you use for fill flash then determines what the (brighter) key lights are set to eg with my Elinchrom RS1200 heads, if the fill light is set to the minimum of 2.5 then the key light can well be up around 5.6 to 6 (max 7.5) - and that's a LOT of light. It's actually preferable to have something lower for fill, as Bill suggests.

Elinchrom have a number of lights - some have skyport receivers built in, so you just need the transmitter on the camera (the transmitter is used to also set the flash level of 1 to 3 groups) (saves having to walk to the lights every time) (keeping in mind that the lights may be on booms and not readily accessible).

I too shoot tethered to a 40" TV screen - absolutely indispensable.

[krfessl]

Great advice all, and thank you ... 1st, as asked (my bad for not including it in the first place) ..
Small Basement home studio, clean finished space... Dabbling in macro, portrait shots, trying to learn product shots, expect to rarely move them outside the studio, if at all... made the "mistake" of buying 2 500w softbox heads with no controls, so I get those points now...

Just spent a couple of hours reading and chatting with B&H on what I think I want and starting to get there...Elinchrom is where I want to be, but my CFO (aka wife) won't let me do it until she sees some results from the last bunch (@6k going from DX or FX last month)

So, I'm now thinking Impact 400 w/s heads (2-3) with modeling lights and/or a backlight... Variable power ITIL digital read outs, Remote trigger via their system (part of a kit) or buy the lights/umbrellas and going up to pocket wizard, and no kit... I usually don't buy anything at the low end when I jump in, but, I'm thinking this might be the exception, for the moment...

I can always replace them if this works out... :-). I did set a challenge of macro photographing @500.00 of stacked coins (10.00 wrapper-ready stacks) which may have been a bit aggressive too...

[RustBeltRaw]

Elinchrom makes excellent lights, but they'll be primarily used indoors, Alien Bees by Paul C. Buff may provide the best bang for buck. They're available in 160Ws, 320Ws, and 640Ws max outputs. The B400 (the 160Ws model) is inexpensive, but low-power. The B800 (320Ws) is a very handy power range. The B1600 (640Ws) is ideal for outdoor portraits where you're competing with sunlight. All AB-series lights have a minimum power 6 stops below their maximum power.

There's also the Einstein E640 light. At 640Ws, it's medium-to-high-power, but has advantages like a 9-stop power range (minimum 2.5Ws, roughly 1/20th of a high-end hot-shoe flash's maximum power) and wireless power adjustment with some add-on hardware. Buff CyberSync or PocketWizard TT-series (with zone controller) radios can be used to wirelessly set the flash power. Extremely handy, especially if you already own some PocketWizards. Other manufacturers also have wireless power adjustment, but I don't believe any have a power range as wide as the Einstein. For 580USD, it's a heck of a smart light.

I'll echo those recommending starting with two lights. Two will take you pretty far, and three can be a little confusing. In addition, third lights (rim, splash, details, etc.) tend to require much lower power than main and fill lights, so those roles can be filled by your current hot-shoe flash (some triggering hardware may be required) for most applications.

[krfessl]

Thanks Lex... The last comment is one of the things I'm considering... Firing the SB-700 for backlighting, and letting it fire the Impact heads, main and fill, which they claim will fire when they see another flash (just saw a great video from a pro on YouTube which demos this) ... Also considering either the Impact kit with the wireless trigger setup as an initial way to go, then moving up to pocket wizard set-up if I can show some results with the initial set-up.... THEN on to better heads!!! Sounds strange maybe but ya gotta do what the CFO lets ya do... :-).

[William W]

. . . Small Basement home studio, clean finished space... Dabbling in macro, portrait shots, trying to learn product shots, expect to rarely move them outside the studio, if at all...

made the "mistake" of buying 2 500w softbox heads with no controls, so I get those points now...

...Elinchrom is where I want to be, but my CFO (aka wife) won't let me do it until she sees some results from the last bunch (@6k going from DX or FX last month) . . .

If I were in your shoes and also having had the experience (a very long time ago) of buying into a low quality and cheaper (hot) Studio Lighting Bank and then later (making the same error) buying a “portable” Studio Flash “kit”: I would buy one Elinchrom Head; one robust Stand; one or two modifiers, (maybe research you exact needs and consider a Translucent Shoot Through or a Vista and a set Grids – maybe even no grids to begin with).

In my experience if one has decided on the kit that you want/need then all expense on any item other than a piece of that final kit is just wasting money.

I’ll throw a question back to you: how can you be expected show the CFO any “reasonable” results as a facsimile of you capacity, if you are working with your second, third or fourth choice of “fill in” gear?

WW

[krfessl]

Bill, good points! The CFO says she has my track record of buy a D7k a couple of years ago, and a bunch of glass, only to be unhappy until I bought the d610 recently (and more glass)... So, she's seen this movie before :-). Many times!

However I am hell bent on 3 lights and I'm close to either the Impact set or Alien bee set ... 1k or 1.5k... Struggle now seems to be, for me anyway, getting the appropriate radio or IR control to either fire them all directly or use the built in "see" the flashes fire mode triggered by my SB-700 as backlight

[Loose Canon]

In my experience if one has decided on the kit that you want/need then all expense on any item other than a piece of that final kit is just wasting money.

Hi Keith,

Bill is absolutely right. If you do not heed this sage advice you will end up trying to convince someone of the same thing he is trying to convince you of down the road. After you have wasted a lot of time/money getting to what you really wanted in the first place.

If you look at the Buff gear you will find that the Bee’s can be integrated into any upgrade you eventually decide upon in the Buff line. Including the triggers. Lex had a good point about the Einsteins too. Very nice lights and a lot of the top dogs are using them. In fact, a lot of the top guns use the AB’s for that matter. But you would be buying into a system you could happily expand upon in the future when you show CFO the awesome results!

Might be good to remember depending on what you want to shoot there are a ton of modifiers to consider. You’ll be wanting them sooner than later. You get a lot of Impact gear, for example, and decide to change manufacturers, you might find it harder than you think to unload. And not that there is anything wrong with Impact (I love their C-Stands).

You also can’t go wrong with the Elinchromes either and same goes for buying into a system that you are pretty sure you can expand upon.

Go for a fully adjustable trigger system. Groups, power, on-off, everything you can get. If not, then don’t get anything and just let the optical slaves handle it. For sure to begin with. If you have a “dumb” trigger system that just fires the lights and still have to walk over, lower the boom, adjust the light, rinse and repeat as needed, then you really haven’t gained much by spending $$ on triggers. Especially if you are in the studio and don’t have location daylight to deal with. You could integrate your speedlight into the system easily enough and always add the triggers later if you decide differently.

Oh, and the Buff “smart” trigger system (CyberSync) has a built in light meter on the transmitter, which you can use for metering or adjustments while hand holding and off-camera. One cool thing about it is that once you have gotten a reading (Buff lights only) any adjustments thereafter are shown in the transmitter depending on the wattage adjustment and give you the correct f/stop. The trigger system and the lights “speak” to each other. You don’t have to take further readings after adjustments. It can also be used and calibrated with the Sekonic’s if you still want to use one. It is a very nice smart system and works great.

I’ll be interested in how you end up going and looking forward to seeing your results Keith!

[Colin Southern]

At the end of the day, if you don't get adequate gear right from the word go, you end up making a rod for your own back (as they say).

For what it's worth, I currently run no less than 5 Elinchrom 1200RS heads, and on occasions could even do with one or two more. It really comes down to whether you want to have equipment to handle anything, or if you want to choose the shot to suit the gear that you have; I'll give you a case in point -- shots with a white background. If you don't want to be messing around in post processing trying to get them white & even then you can easily tie up two lights just illuminating the background evenly for a head and shoulders portrait. If it's full length then you can easily tie up 4 lights just on background illumination.

For normal portraiture you'll need at least one light for key lighting, preferably another for fill, and a 3rd for a hair light makes a big difference. It is possible to use a reflector for fill, but often they're best used to push light up under the chin and too many reflectors starts getting complicated. So 2 lights MAY get you background illumination (if hidden behind subject) and keylight (with reflector for fill) (but no hair light) - 3 lets you have the same "tricky" background lighting + 1 for key and one for hair. IMO 3 is the bare-bones minimum without significant compromises. If you're doing black backgrounds then 3 is "OK" (I say "OK" not "great" because it's still nice to have a couple more for rim lighting.

But to be honest, having said all that, it really depends on how much space you have available (can you give us dimensions?) If it's too cramped then your camera to subject distances are minimal (meaning you need to use unflattering shorter focal lengths) & subject to background distance is minimal (so you get lighting zone cross-contamination). Here's a shot of my studio - and even with this I sometimes wish I had more space.



My STRONG suggestion is to aim for AT LEAST 600WS; it sounds a lot, but big softboxes absorb it (forget umbrellas - they spray light everywhere). I've had many occasions where even my 1200WS lights are maxed out (which is hard on them).

PS: But when it all comes together, the results can be magic

[krfessl]

Colin, Terry, pardon a response to you both here, but my thinking is right down the middle of what you guys responded with! And it was outstanding advice, and I appreciate the time you both took.

-3 ABs are the choice as a "Phase1" for growth
-"Phase 2"is CyberSync (or PW) for santity
- great point on resale, if I can get the CFO to by that one :-)

Colin, nice place, and results!! In answer to you question, my "studio-usable" space is in finished basement, maybe 15x 20 and the intent is to overkill my limited space and expertise with good gear. So, your lighting position with 3 locked that ... It's really for some light portraits, some heavier macro and product stuff, and skills building

[Loose Canon]

Sounds like a good plan Keith!

Don’t forget to rat-hole some $$ for hardware. You will probably be wanting some booms (or mini-booms, BG stands, BGs, surfaces, etc.) and other happy hardware. Some really cheap and some not so much! Especially if you are going to be shooting product and macro. You are going to want to get your lights at every different angle including straight overhead (hair light or clamshell for example with portraits too for that matter). Some stuff can be done on a DIY basis.

You have a nice shooting space. Mine is wall to wall 10’x25” and of course I don’t have that much as a practical space once I get stuff set up (and all the darn furniture tossed out on the deck!)! I’d probably kill or die to have yours or Colin’s dedicated room! And some of the best studio shots I’ve seen here are shot in much less.

But Keith I left out the most important thing I could have mentioned!

Have a blast with it man!

[William W]

. . . In answer to you question, my "studio-usable" space is in finished basement, maybe 15x 20 and the intent is to overkill my limited space and expertise with good gear. So, your lighting position with 3 locked that ... It's really for some light portraits, some heavier macro and product stuff, and skills building

Is that unit imperial feet?

What's the ceiling height?

WW

[Colin Southern]

PocketWizard Plus IIs and Plus IIIs are the ultimate for wireless triggering (it's what I use), but they're expensive compared to the cost of the lights -- and you can't make power adjustments via them.

Having the magic eye turned on on the lights helps, but (a) you need to make sure that you either don't use on-camera flash or if you do, it's set to manual to prevent any pre-flash that will trigger them prematurely (unless they're designed to cope with preflash) and (b) with magic eye on, you can't isolate individual lighting zones for correct setup (which is important) because firing one zone sets off the others.

I've worked in spaces similar to what you have; it's doable, but tricky -- one issue you'll have is light bouncing around all over the place if you have light coloured walls; sometimes that's a good thing, but for the most part it can make the light hard to control -- you might like to have some black curtains handy.

[Colin Southern]

Let me guess ...

Is that unit imperial feet?

Yes.

What's the ceiling height?

Insufficient!

[William W]

Is that unit imperial feet?

Let me guess ...Yes.

. . . my guess too.

What's the ceiling height?

Insufficient!

. . . always is.

***

back on track . . .

Keith,
Colin has already mentioned where I was moving to, by my asking about the space and the ceiling height: i.e. the potential issues of (uncontrollable) bouncing light
You might like to think about the choice of your ceiling colour: matt black.

WW

[Colin Southern]

. . . my guess too.



. . . always is.

***

back on track . . .

Keith,
Colin has already mentioned where I was moving to, by my asking about the space and the ceiling height: i.e. the potential issues of (uncontrollable) bouncing light
You might like to think about the choice of your ceiling colour: matt black.

WW

I should add too that by the time you connect a softbox that's 2 feet deep to a head that's another foot deep and try to position it high enough not to get hot spots, one can run out of room pretty quickly. I have close to 3 meters, and would like more.