LR Tools, which ones do you use?

[NorthernFocus]

I've finally started down the LR path and have some questions regarding the tools in the develop module. As background I've been doing PP for years with various combinations of ViewNX/2, Capture NX/2, PSE 4,6,8,9, and 11, and several different plug-ins for PSE. So I understand the concepts etc. and am just trying to figure out which tools best accomplish what I'm trying to get done. But there are more/different adjustment tools available in LR so presumably they can do more and I'd like to take advantage of that fact. However, at least some of the tools seem to be redundant to some degree.

For example, in the "basic" adjustments panel there is overall exposure level, white/black points, and hightlights/shadows. OK, I think I've got a pretty good understanding of what each one does. But then there is the curves panel. What are the advantages of curves versus the sliders above? Is it purely a matter of preference to use one versus the other? Then there is the HSL panel with sliders for HSL for many more colors than the RGB that I've been accustomed to. This makes sense in that it seems to provide a higher level of control or "fine tuning" vs the previoius two controls.

So my basic question is, which tools to folks use for what purposes? Do you use either the basic panel or the curves, or do you use both. Then do you use the HSL in addition to the previous two, or don't use it at all?

I will say the little bit that I've fooled around in the develop module so far, it's clear that there is a much higher level of control over colors than I've been accustomed to. I'm just trying to figure out if it's meaningful...

Thanks in advance for any input.

[Shadowman]

I'm new to LR myself but if you are familiar with the Curves tools in the other applications then you shouldn't have any issues with this version. LR's Curves tools allows you to adjust contrast and more importantly with more control when adjusting individual colors. So rather than do a global contrast adjustment, you can stylize per your taste.

[chauncey]

I don't use curves, preferring to use the sliders instead, do use the HSL sliders, the adjustment brush takes some getting used to, else you can get jagged selections which can be repaired with eraser with feathered edge. One neat and overlooked tool is the HS box available with those brushes and filters.
Also, I use the masking options with noise removal and sharpening.

[Brownbear]

I use exposure, white balance, and the white and black point sliders.

I use the vibrancy slider instead of the saturation slider because I like the more muted colours. And just recently I started using the saturation sliders in the HSL panel to increase the saturation of certain colours I would like to stand out (as a result of your feedback on my birds).

After working through the above I use the curves tool to adjust to taste for tone and contrast.

I always use the unsharp mask tool. I sometimes use the clarity tool on just birds but just a little, around 10.

And I use the chromatic aberration tool. That's it so far.

[DanK]

I use most of them, although not in every case.

There is indeed redundancy in the tonality controls, but that lets you choose the ones that you find best for a particular image or that suit your particular style. I use the white and black sliders most of the time. I frequently but less often use the highlights slider and shadows slider. However, I still prefer doing many of my adjustments with the curves tool, which seems to me to give a higher level of control. One of the very nice things about LR is the "targeted adjustment tool" attached to many of the adjustments, including the curves tool. This allows you to modify the curve from within the image, and even more useful, it tells you where to put a control point on the curve to match a given tone. For example, if you find a region that needs brightening or darkening, you can turn on the TAT, and put the cursor on that region. LR will show a control point at the relevant point on the curve. You can then adjust either by dragging the TAT up or down or by moving the control point. I do both, but more often the latter.

I don't have the URL handy, but there is a very good page at the Luminous Landscape site that shows very well what the different tonality adjustments do.

The color sliders also have a TAT. This allows you to see how you should move sliders (often more than one) to adjust a region. In this case too, you can simply use the TAT directly, or you can use it to figure out which sliders are relevant, and in what degree, and then manipulate them manually. You can do this for both luminance and saturation. This also provides a very powerful and easy tool for fine adjustments of black and white conversions.

I also use the clarity tool a great deal. This is somewhat like a local contrast adjustment in other editing programs, but easier and more flexible. I often up the vibrance a bit but rarely use the global saturation slider.

In the current version, the sharpening tool is very good and quite flexible. The noise reduction tool is good enough that I almost never use a third-party tool anymore. (I don't use much NR at all, but almost all of what I do I do in LR.

There is also a very simple lens profile tool.

LR also has a very good print module. I do most of my own printing, and at this point, I do it all in LR.

For some things, LR is not sufficient. It does not have layers, and it offers only a somewhat crude approximation of selections. But apart from focus stacking, it does most of what I need, and it does most of it well. Most of my images are edited entirely in LR (apart from stacking).

[Andrew1]

The biggest benefit you will see is the brushes. Being able to make adjustments in selected areas will be the best change you will see. There are far more tutorials for LR than what's been available to you with the other programs so take some time and go through a bunch of them. Personally I still think ViewNX gives a bit better hues and tones but once you move the photos over to LR you loose any previous NX adjustments anyway. If I had to do it all over again I would bypass Elements a go straight to CaptureNX and NIK.

[NorthernFocus]

Thanks for the replies, folks. I already gather what my initial thoughts were. Much of this is a matter of preference.

Dan, thanks for the tip on the TAT tool. That is the most useful thing I've seen so far and a potential step change from anything available in the PP programs I've used previously. Rather than trial and error to see how manipulating various controls affect a certain area of an image, with a click you can see exactly which sliders make a difference. That is really cool.

[NorthernFocus]

The biggest benefit you will see is the brushes. Being able to make adjustments in selected areas will be the best change you will see..... If I had to do it all over again I would bypass Elements a go straight to CaptureNX and NIK.

The LR brushes are pretty primitive compared to the tools in PSE or Capture NX2. I never really could connect with NX2. The interface is just a bit clunky. One REALLY frustrating thing is that if you want to go back and tweak a previous step in your changes, it turns off all of the steps after it. That makes me crazy

[Mike Buckley]

Two things, Dan...

I use LR only for its Book module, correcting perspective and cloning, but you asked about the difference between using the Curve panel and the sliders in the Basic panel. All of the parameters in the Basic panel that are appropriate for applying selectively can be applied that way using the Adjustment brush. However, the Curve tool can not be applied selectively; it can only be applied globally. Personally, I think using the Curve tool provides more control but to each his own.

One REALLY frustrating thing [about CNX2] is that if you want to go back and tweak a previous step in your changes, it turns off all of the steps after it. That makes me crazy

If you want to solve that problem, go to the Edit menu, then Preferences, then General. Enable "Keep All Steps Active in Edit List (Requires Fast Processor)." I'm not suggesting that you should reconsider using CNX2 but I wouldn't want you and others to think the issue that you mentioned can't be solved.

[Glenn NK]

1) I use the gradient tool to gradually change values on a large area. Eg: for a sunset where the FG is quite dark at one corner, I'd apply a gradient to lighten a dark area. It could also be used with other adjustments.

2) I use the brush fairly extensively. I've done quite a bit of focus stacking with flowers, but since I work outdoors and our seaside climate is seldom calm, movement is a constant problem. By stopping down, the DOF improves, but then the BG is too sharp and becomes distracting. A brush on the BG with the appropriate settings can dramatically soften the BG, or alternatively, the BG can be turned black. LR5 allows one to duplicate the brush which is very useful in achieving a black BG as one pass seldom will completely black out the BG.

3) Another favourite for flowers is the spot removal tool for fixing small imperfections such as bug holes or excessively large blobs of pollen. The "Q" key activates the tool, but I usually use the Alt key so I can choose where the "fix" comes from. The auto fix I find to be not too much use.

Glenn

[davidedric]

Hi Dan,

I've been using LR for about eighteen months, and I use pretty much all of the tools in the Develop module. I don't do anything very clever, but a combination of LR and Nik gets me where I want to be - can't remember the last time I fired up PSE. Of course YMMV. You had some excellent steers above, but maybe I can add one or two points.

The sliders do a rather sophisticated job under the hood. I expect they could be simulated in curves, but it would be a complex job. Jeff Schewe explains it very well in his book The Digital Negative, and I wonder if it's Jeff who contributed the post on Luminous Landscape, that was mentioned.

Dan mentions the problem of changing an edit in the middle of the history and losing the subsequent edits. It's worth mentioning that the great majority of the edits are still "there" and can be accessed and modified, which just adds another entry in the history. So if you've used the adjustment brush, for example, you can select the brush again, highlight the pin, and make further adjustments. So although DanK is quite correct, I have rarely found it a problem in practice.


Edit: Oops I now realise that Dan was probably talking about NX2. Never mind, the point still stands.

If you haven't found it. www.lightroomforums.net is a dedicated forum to LR, with some very knowledgeable contributors (it's actually owned by Victoria Bampton, the "Lightroom Queen"). I think it is well worth signing up.

Regards,

Dave

[DanK]

Dan mentions the problem of changing an edit in the middle of the history and losing the subsequent edits. It's worth mentioning that the great majority of the edits are still "there" and can be accessed and modified, which just adds another entry in the history. So if you've used the adjustment brush, for example, you can select the brush again, highlight the pin, and make further adjustments. So although DanK is quite correct, I have rarely found it a problem in practice.

That wasn't me. More than one Dan in the thread!

When you make an edit in LR, it will show up in the history panel on the left hand side. The first number is the change you made in that particular edit, and the second is the final value. So, for example, suppose that you make a severe clipping adjustment of -69. This will show up as:

White clipping -69 -69

Now, let's say that you think that was too severe. You can't go back and change that step if you have made additional edits, but you can start a new clipping edit. YOu can simply move the slider to where you want it. Let's say that your new value is -38. The this line will appear, showing the second edit amount and the new total:

White clipping +31 -38

It would be tidier to be able to change an element of the history, but this accomplishes the same thing.

The the new tonality sliders: I have read a bit about them, and I am partway through The Digital Negative, which I am finding very valuable. I found the excellent Luminous Landscape explanation I mentioned earlier; it's here. My point was not that the curves tool is "better" than these. My point was that I often find that I can more easily accomplish what I want with the curves tool. That's the nice thing about this redundancy--the different approaches work differently, and you can choose among them based on your own work style or the demands of a particular image.

Glenn, your use of the adjustment brush on backgrounds was a real eye-opener for me, and I have been working on learning how to use this better.

Dan

[jprzybyla]

Hi Dan,

I read your response that the adjustment brush in Lightroom was pretty primitive. I say not so after you are used to using it. The mask for applying changes to only certain areas is in my opinion a great tool. I will give you an example how I use it. If a bird image has a soft background and I want clarity applied to the bird but not the soft background I use the adjustment brush set to 100 percent Flow and Density but the Feathering set to 50 percent. I choose Clarity from the drop down list ( normally I begin with a setting of +10). After selecting Clarity I make sure Auto Mask is not checked and that Show Selected Mask Overlay is checked. I them paint over the bird extending a little outside the bird's edges. Now to clean it up so that the adjustments are only applied to the bird. Holding down the Alt key (Windows) will activate the eraser. When using the eraser make sure Auto Mask is checked. Work your way around the bird erasing what extends outside the birds edges. Once that is accomplished turn off Show Selected Mask Overlay and apply the adjustments as necessary with the sliders. You can apply more than one adjustment if needed. Here is an example I did today. I wanted to add clarity, knock down the highlights and open the shadows on these ducks. I did as I described above selecting and masking all three ducks, then I applied +20 clairity, -30 highlights, and +25 shadows. I could do this to the birds without touching or changing the background. Clarity to the soft background would have made it look crunchy. It took me a while to learn how to use it, not I would not want to be without it.

[Mike Buckley]

Joe,

Dan mentioned that the Lightroom adjustment brushes are primitive compared to tools in other products. One of the products that he mentioned is Capture NX2 and I'm very familiar with it. I've used brushes in both that product and Lightroom and a brush as a masking technology is generally inferior in my view compared to control point technology in the NIK Collection and in Capture NX2. I don't know if the NIK plug-in for Lightroom will allow you to mask the area using its control points and apply the changes using Lightroom's sliders that you are already used to using, but that might be worth looking into.

[benm]

Northernfocus -
Difference between "basic" and "curves":
In "basic" when you hover over the "exposure", "highlights", "whites", "shadows" and "blacks" sliders a light gray rectangle appears in the histogram (not so easy to see). The rectangle corresponds to the tonal values that will be modified when you adjust that slider.
When you use "curves" you can change the range that a particular slider will affect (you have to use the sliders in the "curves" panel, not in the "basic" panel).

For me, this is way more control than I need so I don't use it.

Other useful tools that are available that you may not be aware of: noise reduction, perspective control and vignette control (adding or removing).

[wilgk]

I am also a newbie to Lightroom, so I will certainly bookmark this thread! Thankyou so much!
To aid in my learning, I have bought Scott Kelby's LR5 book and the Kelby training videos have a vast array of tutorials, it is just finding the time & getting slowly along the learning curve. I was using Aperture to import so the temptation to go to the program I know and can use quickly is strong! We are set for some very hot days here next week, hopefully then under the aircon, I will spend some time & be able to contribute to this thread.
I do find myself looking first for the 'levels' slider, which Aperture offers as well as curves, but LR has the function but not in the same way.

[NorthernFocus]

Thanks for all the replies and for the links. I agree that one nice thing about the redundancy in some of the tools is that we can each pick which ones work best for us. For example for whatever reason I've just never warmed up to the curves tool and frankly with the other options to accomplish the same thing I doubt that I will start now. There's a lot of control with four sliders for white/black/shadows/highlites and the HSL sliders are incredibly powerful.

Dan mentioned that the Lightroom adjustment brushes are primitive compared to tools in other products.....

Exactly so. Not saying that it isn't a valuable tool. It is just a bit clunky and takes a lot more time then the NIK controls points or for the automatic edge finding tools in PSE for that matter.

All in all I have to say I'm quite pleased with LR capabilities thus far. And since I'm going to be using it for cataloging anyway, along with a few plug-ins I think it will be my default editor going forward.

Thanks for all the input, everyone.

[Brownbear]

Thanks Joe,

I just tried exactly this and it worked beautifully.

Dan, thank you for starting this thread.

Hi Dan,

I read your response that the adjustment brush in Lightroom was pretty primitive. I say not so after you are used to using it. The mask for applying changes to only certain areas is in my opinion a great tool. I will give you an example how I use it. If a bird image has a soft background and I want clarity applied to the bird but not the soft background I use the adjustment brush set to 100 percent Flow and Density but the Feathering set to 50 percent. I choose Clarity from the drop down list ( normally I begin with a setting of +10). After selecting Clarity I make sure Auto Mask is not checked and that Show Selected Mask Overlay is checked. I them paint over the bird extending a little outside the bird's edges. Now to clean it up so that the adjustments are only applied to the bird. Holding down the Alt key (Windows) will activate the eraser. When using the eraser make sure Auto Mask is checked. Work your way around the bird erasing what extends outside the birds edges. Once that is accomplished turn off Show Selected Mask Overlay and apply the adjustments as necessary with the sliders. You can apply more than one adjustment if needed. Here is an example I did today. I wanted to add clarity, knock down the highlights and open the shadows on these ducks. I did as I described above selecting and masking all three ducks, then I applied +20 clairity, -30 highlights, and +25 shadows. I could do this to the birds without touching or changing the background. Clarity to the soft background would have made it look crunchy. It took me a while to learn how to use it, not I would not want to be without it.

[Glenn NK]

Joe:
Nice work on the birds - they really stand out.

If a bird image has a soft background and I want clarity applied to the bird but not the soft background I use the adjustment brush set to 100 percent Flow and Density but the Feathering set to 50 percent. I choose Clarity from the drop down list ( normally I begin with a setting of +10). After selecting Clarity I make sure Auto Mask is not checked and that Show Selected Mask Overlay is checked. I them paint over the bird extending a little outside the bird's edges. Now to clean it up so that the adjustments are only applied to the bird. Holding down the Alt key (Windows) will activate the eraser. When using the eraser make sure Auto Mask is checked. Work your way around the bird erasing what extends outside the birds edges. Once that is accomplished turn off Show Selected Mask Overlay and apply the adjustments as necessary with the sliders. You can apply more than one adjustment if needed. Here is an example I did today. I wanted to add clarity, knock down the highlights and open the shadows on these ducks. I did as I described above selecting and masking all three ducks, then I applied +20 clairity, -30 highlights, and +25 shadows. I could do this to the birds without touching or changing the background. Clarity to the soft background would have made it look crunchy. It took me a while to learn how to use it, not I would not want to be without it.

Interesting. I've been using the brush in a similar manner, but in reverse to what you do - I brush the background. I think I'll try your approach.

What I'd like would be to have the same adjustments as the main panel. There is no HSL panel in a brush for example.

Glenn

[NorthernFocus]

...In "basic" when you hover over the "exposure", "highlights", "whites", "shadows" and "blacks" sliders a light gray rectangle appears in the histogram (not so easy to see). The rectangle corresponds to the tonal values that will be modified when you adjust that slider...

I hadn't noticed the indicator showing which parts of the histo is affected. I'll have to look for that. Thanks for the tip.