Keeping it Real (Estate)

[Loose Canon]

Well, I decided I needed to take my Horizons into the Big Out There! Been a little restless on the photography front lately and needed something to start at the bottom with and give myself a huge learning curve. Turns out I made a great choice with that! This genre is has got me doing some head scratching!

Lots of things I don’t always do. Wide shooting, perspective and distortion issues, lots of lighting zones, a different outlook on composition and how that will relate to the ability to light and balance the scene, different modifiers than I am used to using just to name a small few I am finding!

Shot with a 17-40mm L f/4 that I have had for a long time and though I have used it in some landscaping, is just now going to see some serious service for another reason. The shot was at 24mm focal length.

I lit the entire scene with speedlights and I only have three. So I composited two shots with six lighting zones, three lights fired each shot and used an exposure fusion for post. Another shot with gray card placement. Camera set for ambient (room lights and outside through the windows) and tried to bring the lighting of the interior up to match that. I’ll be honest. I had a difficult time getting the shot even to this level, which I am not exceedingly happy with. But what the hell! At least my verticals are vertical!

Here’s the breakdown:

1/100th shutter
F/5.6
ISO 400
24mm FL



I know there are a lot of issues with this shot. I didn’t stage as well as I could have for one. Wildly different light temperatures, and because of the large spaces which connect and all need to be lit in this shot I bit off a chunk! Lighting issues, lack of room ambient, jeez! Though in Real Estate Photography the Living areas are considered a "Money Shot" (which is why I did this space), this is more or less a "practice" type shot. I need to figure out not only what to do but what issues I might be running into with this genre.

I can’t say that I have ever seen a shot of this type on this particular Forum but I know there are at least a couple of folks here who know a little something about this. I would be grateful to those folks and anyone else who has a suggestion to give me a critique on this shot. Please include in those comments how I could make improvements rather than just telling me what you don’t like and leaving it at that!

Everything will be considered so let ‘r rip guys! I might add my Resident Art Director (Wifey-Poo) has already made some seriously cool comments!

I need a cocktail for crying out loud! I think I’ll raise my glass to Learning Curves!

[dje]

Well Terry, if you are getting good vibes from Mrs Loose Canon then that is indeed a very good start !

I like the shot, I think it portrays a nice ambience and looks quite professional. About the only thing I notice as a little jarring is the shadow on part of the white sloping ceiling. You could probably do something with that in pp.

Dave

[Shadowman]

Hi Terry,

Nicely captured, were you trying to simulate a sunlit room? Perhaps not, with all of the indoor lighting. I like the wide format, I think it could have included more of the interior, however I don't know what is beyond the boundaries displayed, it just seems as if the crop is a bit tight.

[Loose Canon]

Thank you Dave.

I agree with your assessment. One of the issues I was unhappy with. Maybe it looks okay if one considers the widow placement in that space, and the wall gradient shadow in that upper corner. But I don’t like that shadow. Or maybe it should be softer at least. One thing I am finding with this genre is how tough it is to correct certain things in post. Well, mostly how much time is involved. Better to get it right at the shoot!

Dave? Do you do a lot of this kind of photography?

Thank you John.

Not so much trying to simulate sunlight in this shot. Trying to get a decent balance between ambient and flash. I want to avoid a shot that looks too “flashy”! Ambient in this space is minimal. The coffee table end that is out of frame is in front of a long, narrow window that runs the length of the wall, which is very tall. Not enough to make that space (foreground of the shot) look nice. So one of the flashes was added here. Tall stand and bounced off the ceiling/wall joint that we can’t see close to camera. The stand is just out of frame to camera right and close to the camera.

There is a huge amount of distortion introduced with ultra wide angles out toward the edges of the frame. Even at 24mm one can see evidence of this in the coffee table. This is, of course, with lens corrections in post. I wanted to tell the room’s story, but that distortion that I found becomes quickly detrimental. The object ‘d art on the table was whacked way out at wider angles. The high ceilings (gabled), open spaces leading into other spaces, two story. The technical issues are why I decided not to go UW.

Cool of you to say John. Part of the deal for me is figuring what is going to be a good composition while still telling the story. Not everything has to be shown in its entirety and what to give visual cues to is one of the many things I am looking at.

Would you have any ideas on how to best correct/deal with this wide angle distortion if I went wider per your thoughts?

Thanks guys. Appreciate the feedback. It helps me to see what I need to see.

[dje]

Dave? Do you do a lot of this kind of photography?

No not at all Terry but I do find it interesting. I suspect it is more difficult than some would realise.

Dave.

[MrB]

Terry, I don't know much about this type of shot (or anything, really!) so this is just an opinion as an observer, and you and others will probably disagree - the image gives me the feeling of having to go uphill to get to the next room, possibly something to do with the wide-angle effect?

Cheers.
Philip

[Donald]

I am not one of the couple of folk on here to whom Terry refers in saying, "... I know there are at least a couple of folks here who know a little something about this...". But on the basis of the invitation being to anyone to comment..............

For me it's like any other picture in terms of the key elements being lighting and composition. I know next-to-nothing about lighting interiors, but I do wonder if such scenes need to be flooded in light. This is a very nice, peaceful picture. But if it was, for example, a marketing image designed to 'sell' that interior, would it grab you and hold you? I know I'm introducing another factor into my own dialogue - purpose of the picture. But I wonder if it was more bathed in light if it would have more of 'pow' effect?

In terms of composition, I think the same basic rules apply whether it's an interior like this or the sort of landscapes that I do. What do you include in the frame and what do you leave out? I'd describe this image as pretty busy. There are a lot of things in the picture. One of the most prominent is, i think, that bowl/pot on the table at the bottom right. I think that it's an attention-grabber in the image and in being so, is not well placed within the frame. I think that if it was not on the table it would be a much more open/expansive image and more attention would be directed towards the rear of the room.

Just a couple of thoughts with which others might totally disagree.

[AlwaysOnAuto]

I've only made 'interior' shots fooling around with my cameras/lenses, not as any formal photography type shooting. That being said, I'd approach a shot like this by lowering the ISO to 100, setting the camera on a tripod, crank the aperture up/down to f16 or f22 and letting the camera take a long exposure using ambient light. Then I'd work backwards adding light to areas that didn't turn out the way I wanted them too.
Maybe that's the wrong way to go about it. Idonknow.

I really don't see anything 'wrong' with your picture.

[bnnrcn]

Hi Terry, a comfortable place, I would clone out the shadows on the wall on the LHS

[Max von MeiselMaus]

I don't do interiors, but chipping in as an interested observer.

That is a nice, clean shot, uniformly well-lit. I am not too fussed about the different light temperatures in there. The only places where they jar slightly are on the sloping ceiling on the lhs and the strip of carpet by the staircase. However, I wouldn't have seen those if I hadn't gone looking.

The only thing that struck me was that it is a little top-heavy. I am guessing that you wanted to include that doorway on the landing, which would be important if you were producing a sales picture. It shows what the layout of the area is. However, this means that the foreground doesn't have as much space. With a wider shot you could have included the doorway, some more of the staircase and fitted some more foreground in there. If you could have sacrificed the top door, you could have shot lower and cut out that slanted ceiling, which has been causing problems with light temperature and shadow.

Being REALLY nit-picky, and this from someone who does still life so is used to moving things a fraction of an inch, taking a shot, then moving them back again, I might have looked to de-clutter that left hand corner, behind the sofa. I might have moved that bench to somewhere it wouldn't be seen, to clear the space behind the lamp. I would also have moved the bowl on the rear table to the right slightly, to clear most of it from the chair, perhaps leaving a slight overlap to show depth. I would also have moved it forward so that its top edge doesn't line up with the dark window sill. But, as I say, that is becoming still life picky.

But I like the oblique lines. It gives it interest and leads the eye around the space. Looking at how many features you managed to fit in, it also looks as though you found the best spot from which to take that shot.

And kudos on stepping out of your comfort zone and taking on that challenge. It stretches you but teaches you so much.

[Brownbear]

Hi Terry,

I can't offer any expertise on this type of photography but here is a link with some beautiful high end real estate images that hopefully might give you some ideas. The images seem to focus on one area/room at a time, use views leading into rooms and/or include the views from each room.

http://www.malcolmhasman.com/index2.html

[Loose Canon]

Terry, I don't know much about this type of shot (or anything, really!) so this is just an opinion as an observer, and you and others will probably disagree - the image gives me the feeling of having to go uphill to get to the next room, possibly something to do with the wide-angle effect?

I guess it’s a matter of converging planes/lines in the perspective Phillip. I’m not seeing anything that says that is an unusual occurrence in this genre, but the verticals absolutely have to be vertical.

For me it's like any other picture in terms of the key elements being lighting and composition. I know next-to-nothing about lighting interiors, but I do wonder if such scenes need to be flooded in light. This is a very nice, peaceful picture. But if it was, for example, a marketing image designed to 'sell' that interior, would it grab you and hold you? I know I'm introducing another factor into my own dialogue - purpose of the picture. But I wonder if it was more bathed in light if it would have more of 'pow' effect?

In terms of composition, I think the same basic rules apply whether it's an interior like this or the sort of landscapes that I do. What do you include in the frame and what do you leave out? I'd describe this image as pretty busy. There are a lot of things in the picture. One of the most prominent is, i think, that bowl/pot on the table at the bottom right. I think that it's an attention-grabber in the image and in being so, is not well placed within the frame. I think that if it was not on the table it would be a much more open/expansive image and more attention would be directed towards the rear of the room.

Donald I really don’t know what a real estate agent would want out of a shot. I would imagine there would be as many different opinions on that as there are real estate agents! Maybe I’ll find out what some of them think down the road. What I do know is that with too much flash the scene starts to take on a “flashy, lit” look. One of the things I want to be able to do is light a scene such that it looks halfway natural, but nicely lit. Not as easy as one might think, or at least for me!

You are absolutely 100% right about that bowl. It shouldn’t be there and its position in the frame made it subject to a ton of distortion, which is evident. It should go. Less is looking like better.

I'd approach a shot like this by lowering the ISO to 100, setting the camera on a tripod, crank the aperture up/down to f16 or f22 and letting the camera take a long exposure using ambient light. Then I'd work backwards adding light to areas that didn't turn out the way I wanted them too.

Interesting comment Alan! I pretty much did just that kinda! I set my exposure for the window, watching the lit room lights. The ambient exposure I wanted was outside the window. Had I exposed for the room I would have blown the windows quite badly. Possibly risking blowing the window frames and possibly blooming. I also probably set my aperture too wide for this scene since the furthest point in the shot is quite a ways away. Then I lit the areas that needed it, according to the ambient exposure, which in this case was darn near everything!

But I was lighting with speedlights, which is what I want to do. If I were to go on location I wouldn’t want to lug around a bunch of studio strobes and associated grip. It has to be pretty portable. So I went with a wider aperture, and bumped the ISO to give the speedlights a fighting chance. With the ambient exposure set for the window’s outside view its a pretty good shutter drag.

Thank you Binnur. I am finding that cloning on walls is not near as straightforward as I thought (hoped) it would be! I like gradient shadow, but hard shadow I want to avoid. I don’t want to avoid all shadow, of course, but I want them looking nice! So I should have spent some time doing as you suggest. Good eye as usual!

I am not too fussed about the different light temperatures in there. The only places where they jar slightly are on the sloping ceiling on the lhs and the strip of carpet by the staircase. However, I wouldn't have seen those if I hadn't gone looking.

The only thing that struck me was that it is a little top-heavy. I am guessing that you wanted to include that doorway on the landing, which would be important if you were producing a sales picture. It shows what the layout of the area is. However, this means that the foreground doesn't have as much space. With a wider shot you could have included the doorway, some more of the staircase and fitted some more foreground in there. If you could have sacrificed the top door, you could have shot lower and cut out that slanted ceiling, which has been causing problems with light temperature and shadow.

Being REALLY nit-picky, and this from someone who does still life so is used to moving things a fraction of an inch, taking a shot, then moving them back again, I might have looked to de-clutter that left hand corner, behind the sofa. I might have moved that bench to somewhere it wouldn't be seen, to clear the space behind the lamp. I would also have moved the bowl on the rear table to the right slightly, to clear most of it from the chair, perhaps leaving a slight overlap to show depth. I would also have moved it forward so that its top edge doesn't line up with the dark window sill. But, as I say, that is becoming still life picky.

But I like the oblique lines. It gives it interest and leads the eye around the space. Looking at how many features you managed to fit in, it also looks as though you found the best spot from which to take that shot.

Great observations Max. Stuff I have to look at for the future. Certainly if I am looking for a portfolio shot. I thought (maybe mistakenly) the room’s “story” needed to include the gabled ceiling as well as the semi-open space. I didn’t think I had to shoot it all the way up but enough to give it that feeling overhead. Something to consider for sure.

I did minimal staging as you can tell. Mostly because I had my hands full with figuring the lighting, which was my primary concern with this shot since I am just starting out. I found this composition a bit tricky to light! Maybe because I am just starting out with this or maybe because I don’t know squat! With my own observations, your’s, and the rest of the excellent comments I am getting, I think the staging will reveal itself as I go along. I got the shot lit, then as usual, noticed all the extraneous stuff that I didn't pay any attention to! By then I had lost the outside light and couldn't reshoot without the windows going to black.

Mixed lighting is giving me a pain in the kiester, but I have to deal with it. Its going to be a big part of this I’m afraid! I am used to studio work where I have complete control with that. Not so much with this stuff! You might get everything all the time! I did an ambient merge of this and could easily tell which room lights had fluorescent and which had incandescent bulbs immediately! It looked like a Pink Floyd stage show! And that will probably be the norm so I had better suck it up and get a grip on dealing with it. Adding flash to the scene should help mitigate that. I could invest in a number of matched bulbs to carry around and change out as necessary, which is really a pretty good idea. I have another house or two I can horn in on to shoot if I bring beer!

Guys I really appreciate the comments. Great stuff and stuff I can really sink a tooth into!

[Loose Canon]

Cool Christina! Thank you for sharing that!

The guy obviously knows the value of excellent photos in presenting his listings. Great to have another source to “reverse engineer” some good stuff!

[Rob Ekins]

Terry,
I have shot an interior or two (See my website in the signature below) I will make the time tomorrow to go over this thread and the image you posted.

Can you post a higher res version for me to take a look at or send one to me @ my email on the front page of my site if you are not happy to post high res here, the current image is a bit to small to work out much more than comp and some lighting placements

[Loose Canon]

For some reason I thought you shot Real Estate Rob. Must’ve been something you said at some point.

Had a little peek at your sight! Looks like you weren’t kidding about shooting an interior or two! Beautiful site and gorgeous images!

I think it is incredibly generous of you to make this gracious offer. I would have thought that after doing this all day the last thing you would want to do is have a look at something from a hack like me! I would be crazy not to take you up on it!

So the email was sent.

I want to thank you profusely in advance sir. I am grateful for the opportunity to have my shot examined by a professional of your calibre.

[Rob Ekins]

Thanks for the kind words Terry,

I didn't receive an email but will crack on anyway.

Composition: You chose an extraordinarily difficult space to capture for your fist attempt, multiple zones with adjoining spaces are always hard to get right, you did really well. If I had to shoot this space in one frame I would probably start with the same basic composition but not as wide, there is no need to show the wall on the left or so much of the stair case. We only need to show a touch of the balustrade to imply what is there and we know there is a wall to the left as the roof slopes down and there is no light coming in from a window. Getting tighter/shooting longer has a number of benefits, less area to light, less perspective and edge distortion to deal with at UW foal lengths and the space will not feel so much like a bowling alley.




Or better still I would shoot more than one view showing small elements of the surrounding zones, you can show only a small portion of those zones but the space is implied and our brains work out what is there especially if there is more than one shot. In the shot below the client wanted a straight forward kitchen shot for his holiday rental, I managed to convince him that if I panned a little left we would pick up a touch of the couch and a lot more ambient light flooding in from that side, those two elements imply there is another usable space there. That shot turned out to be one of his favourite of the series.




Staging: I would have swapped out the bowl for magazines as they would not be such a visual barrier to the scene. The lamp has to go as well it is killing your window, the window pulls your eye through the scene the lamp is one big visual blocker. I might also move the pendant light up a few links on the chain to get it out of the window, if time permitted.


Lighting:There is not a lot to love here sorry. :P
Colour casts are all over the shop. Not entirely your fault, I think you are letting fusion software make choices for you. I have tried them all for me none beat hand blending in post with masks.
Lots of hard shadows. You seem to be pointing strobes into the scene from different angles. I am not sure if you are using modifiers on them but they are not quite right.

How I would light this image using my 6D and my 17-40f4L:
ALWAYS SHOOT TETHERED!
Base ambient. Starting at ISO 400 f6.3 - f8 maybe 1/15s to flood the room with light. Interior lights off.
Window pull: Start at 1/150s and try and find an exposure you are happy with, one that brings the outside in if there is a good view, if you need to kill the view (Say it looks at a neighbours wall) blow the windows out a bit.
Flash pops:Bounce your flashes off the ceiling in the adjoining rooms and bounce one into the ceiling CR this one will be used to control colour casts and fill this end of the room where the ambient if falling off from the far window.
Interior lights: Turn them back on and get an exposure where they are not blown out to mask in later, flashes off.

Post: Select all and open ACR. Select all and do a global WB, not a lot of white in the scene so I would WB to the kitchen cabinets if they are white. I don't use a WB card, I have left too many of them in the scene and end up cloning them out way to much.
Open all in Photoshop layers.
Start with the ambient layer and do any tweaking that is needed.
Blend in Flash layer.
Mask in window exposure.
Blend in Interior lights layer.
Save.
Flatten.
CA correction.
Distortion correction.
Resize, save, mail to happy client

Distortion:This is not too bad. You can avoid the perspective distortion at the bottom of the frame two ways, change your comp so that there are no long lines at the edge of the frame in UWA shots or if the space permits it move back and zoom in. Moving back and zooming in is my preferred method as it also improves the compression in the shot.

I think that covers it. Over all I think this is a really strong first attempt, I had a look at some real estate images in Missouri on Zillow and your shot was as good if not better than many on there, well done. You are right Verticals must be Vertical.... you nailed them, it is a lot harder than people think, so well done again..

Shoot back any questions you might have.

Some reference material for you:
Flickr Photography for Real Estate discussion group. Go There NOW!
Photography for Real Estate Blog... Then here.
Lighting Interiors by Scott Hargis You will want this eBook.
Lighting for Real Estate Photography. This video series is good but get the book first.
8 Steps To Learning Real Estate PhotographyThis series of ebooks is good, choose what you want from the list.




.

[MrB]

Robbie, is there a recommended height for the camera to be positioned above the floor, or does it depend upon the height of the room or some other factor(s)?

Cheers.
Philip

[Rob Ekins]

Philip,
For me it depends on the space, generally speaking the camera should be at a little above where your eyes would be when seated, kitchen/breakfast bars vary in height so you can throw that rule out there, you also need to consider how much floor and ceiling you want to show so again throw the rules out if you have a large vaulted ceiling that needs capturing and you don't have TSE to play with.

What I will say is never take a shot at standing height, it just feels weird and.... I hate ceilings get them wrong and they chew up a third of your image with boring empty space.

Hope this helps, feel free to ask any more questions you might have.

[Loose Canon]

Awesome Robbie. This is exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping for (and need) and I can’t tell you how much I appreciate you taking time to give it. Sorry about the email but it sent (or says it did) and is out there somewhere!

Thank you for those links Robbie. I have been lurking the PFRE site (discussions, gallery, etc.) for a few weeks now though I haven’t actually joined the Group. I don’t meet the requirements for posting there anyway from what I have seen. Great site and somehow I’ve been led over to the blog a time or three. Also great stuff.

I have seen Scott’s videos and have his ebook. Unfortunately it won’t do me any good if I don’t read it! I will, of course, but I wanted to get behind a camera while I have the chance and before I go back to work where I will read the book! Sounds weird I know, but the only way I can budget my time.

I’ll check out the 8 Steps. Thank you for all of those.

And thank you again Robbie for the detailed analysis. Been through it several times as something occurred to me as to how I need to find my way through this. Let me mull this over a minute or two and I'll probably take you up on firing off those questions Robbie.

[Loose Canon]

I should apologize Robbie and do. It just occurred to me.

In the lost email I gave a rundown on the lighting. I know how hard it is when someone submits a studio shot and wants some advice with the lighting but doesn’t say how they lit everything. Its always hard tellin’ not knowin’ and I am guilty here.

You have already given me some excellent advice (couldn’t ask for better and is appreciated) so I’ll post what I included in the email since I left it out here and in case anyone else might be interested.

Lighting:
All Speedlights and I don’t remember what power level. Probably should have written it down for the final shot.
One light on tall stand bouncing on wall/ceiling joint just off to camera right for the living room (foreground).
One light bouncing off a reflector flat on the floor behind the love seat for the dining area.
The kitchen is the room off the dining area peeking through the entryway. One flash on short stand pointed straight up and bounced off the kitchen ceiling.
The family room/den is the furthest room and there is a light/shoot-thru umbrella shooting into that corner.
Upstairs there is a light on the upstairs landing bouncing off a wall out of frame for the area (its an entryway) where the big print is hanging.

I’m using bounce umbrellas and shoot thru umbrellas so far for this along with bounced bare speedlights. My usual modifiers are octaboxes and predominantly strip boxes coupled with bigger strobes for studio work. I do have some boxes available for speedlights.