Printing?

[Rebel]

Someone has asked me for a print of one of my images, but I have no idea where to start.

The image was taken on my D7100 in RAW format, a few initial questions:

1. Whats the largest size I can print without trading off in picture quality?
2. What types of prints are there?
3. Best 3rd party printers in the UK and any idea of costs?

Any information is appreciated, thanks.

[NorthernFocus]

Someone has asked me for a print of one of my images, but I have no idea where to start.

The image was taken on my D7100 in RAW format, a few initial questions:

1. Whats the largest size I can print without trading off in picture quality?

How big you can go depends on the quality of the original image, how far away it is intended to be viewed, and what medium it will be printed on.

2. What types of prints are there?

There are a lot of different media. Probably the most popular and distinctly different are traditional prints on paper(and there are many different types of paper), canvas, and metal(usually aluminum. Glossy paper prints and aluminum show detail best and brighter colors(more reflective). Paper prints are typically framed. Metal can either be framed or hung in multiple different "standoff" mounts.

Canvas only needs half the resolution so can be printed much larger and of course has the advantage of looking like paintings. Canvas can either be framed or "gallery wrapped".

3. Best 3rd party printers in the UK and any idea of costs?

Can't help with where.

[Rebel]

Thanks Dan, I believe the woman wants it printed on canvas.

[NorthernFocus]

I typically print 150ppi/dpi on canvas. So a full size D7100 image at 6000x4000px could print 100x67cm without enlarging it. One thing to be aware of when printing on canvas is that it doesn't reflect light as well as glossy prints. So brightness and saturation have to be increased for it to look right. For example, for the lab that I use I've figured out that once I have an image processed so that it looks right on the screen, I increase bright and saturation by 15 percent for canvas printing and about 10 percent for metal. If you are going to print something large, printing some small samples first is a good idea to figure out how they need to be processed for a particular print lab.

[rpcrowe]

Re: Dan's comments. I agree that the canvas prints that I have made need 15-20% extra brightness.

However, my first canvas print looks dark under normal lighting but seems to glow when lit by a picture light hanging right over it.

Since my first canvas print, I have added the extra brightness and have been quite satisfied viewing them under just about any lighting.

Regarding printing smaller sizes, this ca also be true when printing photo books. An acquaintance in one of my photo clubs gave a seminar on using Adorama for his photo books . He has a smaller size printed which is really a proof. Then he will adjust the image so that the larger (and more expensive) book is right on the money!

[Rebel]

Thanks for the info both, I just want to be able to go back to her with a few different options/prices/sizes etc.

I suppose its better to look for a local printer, so I can go in and actually discuss the image that needs to be printed, they should have a good idea on how much to adjust brightness etc.

[davidedric]

I use Loxley http://www.loxleycolour.com for getting good quality prints done, after asking the same question here a few months ago. It's a bit of a faff downloading their ordering software, but once you've done it everything works smoothly. I have been very happy with the results, and turnround is normally 24/48 hours Monday to Friday.

Dave

[Rebel]

I use Loxley http://www.loxleycolour.com for getting good quality prints done, after asking the same question here a few months ago. It's a bit of a faff downloading their ordering software, but once you've done it everything works smoothly. I have been very happy with the results, and turnround is normally 24/48 hours Monday to Friday.

Dave

Thanks Dave, thats a big help. I'll take a look at their web site.

[James G]

Matt, printing is a whole discipline in its own right so if you don't normally print your own work I'd suggest you do use a professional printer and talk to them. Loxley is a reputable company I have come across.

That said there are a lot of print houses out there. The Photography Show is on in Birmingham at the moment and there are usually a lot of print company's exhibiting there. Its on until Tuesday. But, you could take a look at the exhibitors list online for locals?

I print my own images using an Epson R3000 up to A3+. There is a discipline to it. Most of the learning issues are to do with visualising the changes to the image that are required for print. Simply printing what looks good on the screen/monitor will probably disappoint. You will need to adjust for the gamut of the inks and adjust output sharpening.

I'm making it sound rather complicated but it is actually not too difficult, just another learning curve. If you are interested in printing for yourself I'd be happy to give you a 'practical' session .... It's easier to demonstrate !

[Manfred M]

Matt - a few other comments regarding commercial printing. I do a fair bit of printing, but use my own photo printer to do so. I have looked into getting a few of my images done commercially for formats (sizes) and media (metal) that I cannot handle on my own equipment.

1. Check to see which colour space the printer handles. The majority of them use sRGB exclusively some use AdobeRGB. Make sure that you convert your image to the appropriate one.

2. All of the commercial printers I've seen are exclusively printing jpegs.

3. See if you can get an icc profile for the printer / "paper" that they will be using and softproof it. I personally don't trust softproofing for much other than showing me out of gamut areas in my image.

4. Make sure that your black point is set to 15 or perhaps a touch higher and your white point to 240 or perhaps a touch lower. Any blacks below 15 will print as pure black (loss of shadow detail). Any whites above 240 will result in no ink being deposited on the medium and you will see this when you look at your image from a slight angle. You will see the untouched canvas, which will not add to the image. This is especially a problem with specular highlights.

5. Do a small test print before you go for the full sized one. Most of our computer screens are set up too bright and your printed output will look too dark. A colour managed workflow will ensure that the colours come out right, but not things like sharpness, contrast, etc.

If possible look at the test print at the location and in the light where the image will be hung to judge brightness. I find for my normal printing I have to print around 30% brighter to get the image to look like what I see on my computer screen.

6. With a canvas print, you are going to get a wrapped edge. Make sure you know where this will be and prep your image accordingly. There is an office I visit a few times a year where the photographer did not do this, and a bright mark on the wrapped part is the first thing I see when I walk by the image. This is quite distracting. I don't remember the image, but I sure remember the bright area on the wrapped part.

[george013]

6. With a canvas print, you are going to get a wrapped edge. Make sure you know where this will be and prep your image accordingly. There is an office I visit a few times a year where the photographer did not do this, and a bright mark on the wrapped part is the first thing I see when I walk by the image. This is quite distracting. I don't remember the image, but I sure remember the bright area on the wrapped part.

Than the image is enlarged with a (white) border using to wrap or the image itself is used to wrap. But I have also seen that the extra border was filled with the image continuing in mirror. So you used the image full and had a visual continuing in the wrapped ends.
George

[Rebel]

Cheers James, I was planning on visiting the Birmingham Photography Show but I had other commitments. I don't think I'll be printing myself just yet either.

Thanks for the info Manfred, I am going to bookmark this page and have a look around locally firstly.

[Polar01]

Matt as you are new to the art of the print, I am going to suggest that you post the image so that a possible media to print on could be suggested. Different stock will give a mood or feel, example a image that has lots of bright colours I would print on a luster type of stock as opposed to a matt stock. Another thing I am going to suggest is that if you are a member of local photography than someone there may print, using 24" wide stock which works great to produce a 20" x 30" print and a image shot with a D7100 would have no problem being enlarged to that size.

Cheers: Allan

[DanK]

A few additional thoughts, and one question. First, the question, for Manfred and others: I follow the principle of not letting the whites going all the way to 255 to insure that ink is deposited, but I didn't think it is necessary to go as low as 240. I just checked some of mine, and I haven't been consistent, but I think I was typically aiming to top out at at 245-250. I think I aill do some test prints, but I am interested to know what other people have experienced.

A few other suggestions: commercial printing in modest sizes, like A4, is quite cheap, at least in the US. In line with Allan's comment, you might find it worth the money to take a couple of very different images and order them on several different paper stocks.

Also, the only vendors I have used (I print most of my own) have a check box on their web pages indicating whether you want them to fiddle with the image. At one lab I use, it is just for white balance; at the other, it is unspecified, and based on others' experience, I think it includes other adjustments as well. This can make a big difference. If you have a calibrated monitor (if you don't, you should), and if you softproof using the lab's profiles, then I would turn that option off. Otherwise, you might do better leaving it on.

[Manfred M]

First, the question, for Manfred and others: I follow the principle of not letting the whites going all the way to 255 to insure that ink is deposited, but I didn't think it is necessary to go as low as 240.

Dan in my testing 240 is a "safe" number and I will use it if there are a lot of specular highlights in the shot or a lot of white in the image. As Matt is not someone who has a lot of printing experience, I felt that erring a bit on the side of caution would be prudent. I too have successfully used 245, but 250 did not work and definitely left visible "artifacts". I don't know if this is at all printer related, as all of my prints are done on an Epson 3880.

The same comment goes for the blacks. If I am printing an image with a lot of shadow detail or night shots, I will definitely use the 15 setting as getting some shadow detail is important, but in images that are lighter with minimal deep shadow detail I will go as low as 10.

I will also vary my approach, depending on the type of paper I print on. A glossy paper needs a more conservative black point / white point as it simply give you a much crisper image detail than a matte paper. The way matte paper absorbs ink, I find that I can be a tad more aggressive with my settings. I would expect that a canvas print is likely to be quite "forgiving" in the dark tones but less so in the lights, but that's just an educated guess.

[DanK]

Dan in my testing 240 is a "safe" number and I will use it if there are a lot of specular highlights in the shot or a lot of white in the image. As Matt is not someone who has a lot of printing experience, I felt that erring a bit on the side of caution would be prudent. I too have successfully used 245, but 250 did not work and definitely left visible "artifacts". I don't know if this is at all printer related, as all of my prints are done on an Epson 3880.

The same comment goes for the blacks. If I am printing an image with a lot of shadow detail or night shots, I will definitely use the 15 setting as getting some shadow detail is important, but in images that are lighter with minimal deep shadow detail I will go as low as 10.

I will also vary my approach, depending on the type of paper I print on. A glossy paper needs a more conservative black point / white point as it simply give you a much crisper image detail than a matte paper. The way matte paper absorbs ink, I find that I can be a tad more aggressive with my settings. I would expect that a canvas print is likely to be quite "forgiving" in the dark tones but less so in the lights, but that's just an educated guess.

Manfred,

Thanks very much. I use a different printer (until recently, a Canon Pixma Pro 9000II, and more recently, a Pro-100), so that might make a difference. I haven't noticed a problem so far, but next time I am set up to print, I will run a bunch of test prints.

Dan

[Brownbear]

4. Make sure that your black point is set to 15 or perhaps a touch higher and your white point to 240 or perhaps a touch lower. Any blacks below 15 will print as pure black (loss of shadow detail). Any whites above 240 will result in no ink being deposited on the medium and you will see this when you look at your image from a slight angle. You will see the untouched canvas, which will not add to the image. This is especially a problem with specular highlights.

Manfred...

I still have a lot to learn about printing and would like to ask for further clarification...

1. Let's say you have a high key image on your website which presents best with pure white (255). I'm thinking of one of my heron images or say one of your timber wolf images with pure white snow, that might look a little grey for web presentation. Do you have two versions for each image, ie; one for web presentation and one for printing? And post process each differently depending on the final intended input? From what you are saying it sounds to me as if it is necessary if one doesn't wish to be disappointed with the print or web presentation.

2. Say if one has has a high key image of a Red Winged Black bird... Jet black bird on a white background. If one adjusts the white and black points for printing will that not result in a greyish looking black bird on a greyish instead of a white background?

Thank you.

[Manfred M]

Christina - none of those images had "pure white" in them. Pretty well the only time I have images that actually have a pure white value is one where there are specular highlights or a shot into the sun. Anything else, I will avoid pure white.

Using the following image as my example:



When I explore the image with the color picker tool, the brightest highlights I get in the snow are around 239,239,239. I pick that up in a few places. The darkest details I get are inside the wolf's nostrils where I see values of 10,10,10. So no pure blacks or pure whites.

I did put a white vignette around the image and I get readings of around 250,250,250 in the very corners of the image.

Do I prepare separate images for posting on the web and printing. Absolutely yes!

I work with something I refer to as my "master image" and I do all the manipulation on it and save it as a Photoshop psd file. I do all the work up to the point where I prepare the image for output and this becomes the master. It includes any sharpening, colour corrections, cloning and other "surgery" on the shot.

For web display, as a minimum I will reduce the size and convert the image to sRGB. I may do a bit of sharpness reduction as well as displayed images sometimes come across as oversharpened. I may apply some noise reduction, as necessary, as noise tends to be a bit more apparent on screen than as a printed image.

For print, I determine the size of the print and the paper I will use before I do any other manipulation. I will increase sharpness for a matte paper and might dial things back a bit for a glossier finish, all based on the final output size of the print. I will definitely set the black (around 15,15,15) and white points (around 240,240,240) for print output.

As I tend to print my own, I don't worry about colour space, but I do compensate for my computer screen brightness.

I tend to not save the intermediate files for either web display or printing as they take just a few minutes to prepare from the master.

As for a greyish look, no. I don't find I get that with the settings I use.

[Brownbear]

Thank you, Manfred. Truly appreciated.

Just to make sure that I understand correctly I would like to ask you to look at the high key images in this website (some of the images are nudes - forewarned to anyone who this may offend)

1. If you were to print one of these (in particular the 1st or 2nd image) would you still adjust your white and black points as recommended?

http://www.studio-plus.fr/prise-de-v...-high-key.html

2. If one wishes to print on a pure white background (no shadow or highlight detail in the background to be lost, only in the subject) is setting the white point on the background (only) to 255, using the levels tool, fine for printing say a white swan (with those white and black points set as you recommend) on a pure white background suitable?

http://tabletopstudio.com/white_backgrounds.html

Matt... I hope you don't mind me asking these questions on your thread. I'm asking because this is a subject I need to learn more about.

[Manfred M]

Christina - in the two images you point to, there is so little "pure" black in them (values of 10 and below), I would probably ignore them. The only time I get concerned about the blacks is when looking at large areas of shadow detail. Frankly, there is none to speak of.

When it comes to the whites, there is definitely a problem as there are quite a few places where I see values that approach 255. If you want a decent looking print, you need the printer to deposit some ink on the paper, otherwise you will see blank patches of paper that reflects light differently than the rest of the image.

Because of all of the highlight detail, you need to bring back the white point just to the level where you get the ink deposited. A white point value of 240 would certainly work and depending on the printer you might get away with a value of 245. Go any higher in your white point setting, and you will run into issues. I would do the adjustment with a curves adjustment layer.

Again, your choice of paper / paper finish will come into play as well. A white point of 255 will not work, but you would have to do a test print to see what you can get away with; a setting of 240 would be safe and in isolation, this would appear to be white to you, not gray. Print the image with a border that is white, you will just be able to tell.