Using Live View - Help Needed

[Shadowman]

John and Mike,

I tend to use single point focus (auto and manual) and I place that point of focus on the point of interest or in the case of landscapes on what I think will create the best back to front focus... My camera gives me a choice of 11, 21 and 51 points.

It also offers face priority AF and subject tracking AF. I'd prefer to keep it simple but perhaps the subject tracking AF would work well for a landscape shot of mountains taken from a moving boat?

Subject tracking, best if aiming at a deer in a landscape.

[Mike Buckley]

I tend to use single point focus (auto and manual)

When using manual focus in Live View, there are no focus points. When using manual focus not in Live View, the single focus points are displayed but not used.

My camera gives me a choice of 11, 21 and 51 points.

Keep in mind that only 15 of them are cross-type sensors, which tend to focus better than those that are not. Use that information as you see fit. As an example, when using 11 focus points, all of them are cross-type sensors.

In reading the section on Live View my manual states that one should set the focus area to normal-area AF to pin point focus on a spot, and wide-area AF for hand held shots of landscapes.

I have never understood the difference between those two AF area modes. I always leave the configuration set to normal-area AF because the only time I would ever use Live View is when using a tripod. I would much, much rather use the viewfinder for all sorts of reasons when hand holding the camera.

It also offers face priority AF and subject tracking AF. I'd prefer to keep it simple but perhaps the subject tracking AF would work well for a landscape shot of mountains taken from a moving boat?

Again, I would never use Live View when hand holding a camera. Even if you decide to use it, if the boat is traveling parallel to the scene, I believe you would have to be on a very fast boat such as a speed boat and at a relatively close distance to the landscape scene to effectively use subject tracking AF. Another way of saying iit is that you would rarely need to use subject tracking AF to focus accurately when photographing a landscape. If the boat is traveling perpendicular to the scene (bringing the scene closer and closer to you), using subject-tracking might be effective even if the boat is moving really slowly. All of that would also apply when using the viewfinder so the discussion is equally important in that context.

[Mike Buckley]

WARNING: There are only two types of people who will benefit from reading this post: people who want to conduct the exercise intended for Christina and people who desire a guaranteed and immediate solution to insomnia.

================================================== =====================

Eat the apples, Christina. We're going to use two boxes from your kitchen because this little demonstration works better when using subjects that have flat surfaces rather than round surfaces.

Technical details pertaining to camera gear are not my strength. If this exercise doesn't work perfectly, hopefully it at least works well enough to demonstrate the follow-up to our discussion that began in Frank's thread.

THE EXERCISE
We got into this discussion in the first place because of Frank's thread of a photo inside an old store displaying many items for sale. You wondered how to focus to ensure that all items would be in focus. I suggested that one sure method when using a tripod is to use Live View before capturing the image.

The purpose of this exercise is to demonstrate two things: that using Live View makes it possible to determine whether all subject details can be included within the depth of field and, if so, to determine the largest aperture setting that makes that happen. (Once you know the largest aperture that works, you also know that all smaller apertures will also work.)

1) Position and fit the camera. Place your camera on a tripod near a tabletop. (If you take the easy way out and place it on a tabletop, this exercise may not work due to accidental movement of the camera.)

Attach a lens that has a focal length of 35mm, ideally a prime lens. If you don't have one, adjust a zoom lens until you think it is at about 35mm. Shoot a photo and check the metadata. If the lens is not positioned at 35mm, adjust accordingly. Keep trying until it is precisely at 35mm.

Adjust the camera (and lens if necessary) to manual focus.

2) Position the boxes. Place two small boxes from your kitchen so a flat side on each box is parallel to the camera's sensor. Also place the two boxes about an inch apart and roughly centered within the image. Make sure you can see both boxes at the same time when using Live View.

Position one box 48" from the sensor plane and the other one 51" from the sensor plane. (The position of the sensor plane is indicated on the top of your camera by a white circle and line located immediately to the right of your top LCD.)

3) Set the lens to its smallest aperture.

4) Turn on Live View and magnify the image as much as possible while maintaining a view of both boxes.

5) Manually focus so both boxes are in focus. (The smallest aperture on my lens is f/22. If yours isn't that small, I hope you can still get both boxes in focus. If not, get them as sharp as possible but get them equally sharp.)

6) Change to the largest aperture. Press the OK button to remove all magnification from Live View. Doing so also redraws the Live View image so you can see the effects of a changed aperture. Magnify Live View as much as possible again, being sure to keep both boxes in view on the LCD.

7) Use manual focus again to try to get both boxes in focus. You probably won't be able to make that happen if your largest aperture is large enough. (Mine is f/2.) If you can't get both of them in focus, repeat the cycle of changing to a smaller aperture, redrawing the Live View display and magnifying the image until a cycle of those changes renders both boxes in focus.

Having done that, you now know whether it's possible to get the near and far boxes in focus. (Hopefully so.) If so, you also know the range of apertures that allows you to make that happen. Even if you can't get both boxes in focus, you can imagine photographing a scene such as Frank's store and not being able to get all items in focus. In that situation, you would then decide which items would be the most important to be in focus. Alternatively, if you're not able to get all of them in focus, you might decide to intentionally position yourself so only one or two are in focus.

Hope this helps!

[Brownbear]

Professor Mike,

Thank you for the very interesting and methodical exercise. I'm certain that I will learn a few new things.

I will work on this this weekend and post my result late Sunday, sooner if possible.

Everyone is welcome to join me in on this learning exercise but probably best not to post your results until I post mine, as I'm likely to peek and look for tips to help me along.;)

Mike I must say that your instructions are very clear and precise. I suppose if 35 mm must be precise that also applies to the numerical distances from the sensor plane - Thank you for the explanation, I would've asked for sure.

Thank you for taking the time to help. You're a gem!

[Digital]

Christina, Mike was right. Nikon does not recommend that Live View be confined to a tripod. However I personally believe that using a tripod with Live View is easier to manage.
Sorry for the misinformation.


Bruce

[Brownbear]

No worries. I truly appreciate the fact that you were trying to help.

Christina, Mike was right. Nikon does not recommend that Live View be confined to a tripod. However I personally believe that using a tripod with Live View is easier to manage.
Sorry for the misinformation.


Bruce

[Digital]

Christina, you are so welcome.



Bruce

[jcuknz]

Shane and I use the same DSLR and Christina uses the corresponding, most recent model that is one generation later than mine and Shane's. There is no need to adjust the size of the focus indicator when using Live View because you can zoom in to more than 100% of the size of the image, thus including smaller and smaller portions of the image within that indicator..

That is a neat trick you describe which of course works the same with my camera but I had not really been concious of it.
With your pre-occupation on manual focusing you may not appreciate the value of the feature but ithe very small focus area makes AF as good or better than MF when used properly. Plus I have a lens which can be used zoomed in to focus and then maintains that focus when pulled out to wide which apparenly not many still lenses are capable of [ Grumpy Diver explained this awhile back ... a feature which I had always taken for granted as the way lenses work but they do not ]

[jcuknz]

In reading the section on Live View my manual states that one should set the focus area to normal-area AF to pin point focus on a spot, and wide-area AF for hand held shots of landscapes.

To me it is obvious why they make that suggestion becuase when hand holding it is quite possible that the single spot will be wandering all over the show ... one of the traps of using a small target area and I mentioned awhile back with my shot of the doe against the building where thanks to my unsteady hands focus locked onto the building instead of 'madam'.

[Mike Buckley]

the very small focus area makes AF as good or better than MF when used properly.

That's true but only when there is sufficient contrast where the focus point is positioned. Consider the example of the focus point positioned on an area of clear glass where there is no reflection and when the background is a solid color. Manual focus is required in that situation because of the lack of contrast that prevents auto focus from working. It's doubtful that Christina will run into that situation when photographing landscapes but when she gets around to photographing bugs with a macro lens, it could happen.

[Mike Buckley]

I have a lens which can be used zoomed in to focus and then maintains that focus when pulled out to wide which apparenly not many still lenses are capable of

Another great benefit of that type of zoom lens: Once a polarizer is positioned as you want it, changing the focal length doesn't change the position of the polarizer. My Tokina 12-24 (my only zoom lens) works that way. Many zooms will rotate as you change the focal length, which of course also changes the position of the polarizer.

[Brownbear]

Exercise completed...

Mike it was a good exercise to do. Thank you. And yes, it demonstrated your stated objective.


The purpose of this exercise is to demonstrate two things: that using Live View makes it possible to determine whether all subject details can be included within the depth of field and, if so, to determine the largest aperture setting that makes that happen. (Once you know the largest aperture that works, you also know that all smaller apertures will also work.)

Please excuse the lighting and WB.. I have no lighting and I didn't wish to use flash (ISO 100) so I had to turn on the fluorescent or whatever type of lighting it is (not attractive)

Nikkor Lens 28-200 mm F4.2 - 29 (no prime lens at this focal length)

Cropped a lot, so everyone can read the print on the box. I changed my focus from single point to 9 points for the crosshairs.

F 29



F 4.2



I also tried it on tea boxes because Mike didn't specify the dimensions of a small box

F 29



F 4.2



Mike was there another objective to this exercise... ie; to show me that one can manage to focus on two objects at F 4.2 or F 29? ie; like Franks store F 2 or F22? And why does it not seem to matter where the focal point is placed on the box? (in terms of where one focuses when photographing a landscape, ie; the hyperfocal point or 1/3 the way in etc)

Why all the precise measurements... ie; 35 mm, distance from the sensor plane, distance between boxes etc.

With respect to manual focus it seems to say that manual focus is more precise than autofocus (because one can see the focus), excluding say moving subjects.

Thank you.

[Mike Buckley]

I'm glad the exercise worked for you, Christina. Just a couple of things...

Is it possible with both pairs of photos that you accidentally switched the aperture indication? The reason I ask is that the second image in each pair seems to display both boxes in focus, which is an indication that you used f/29, not f/4.2. Similarly, it seems that only one box is in focus in the first image in each pair, which is an indication that you used f/4.2, not f/29.

It would be a good idea to get used to using the industry-standard nomenclature when indicating the f-stop. Example: f/22.

I changed my focus from single point to 9 points for the crosshairs.

I think you meant that you are using AF-S using 9 focus points rather than 21 or 51. If not, please run that by us again.

Mike was there another objective to this exercise... ie; to show me that one can manage to focus on two objects at F 4.2 or F 29?

No, that was not the objective. I assumed you knew that if both objects are in the depth of field at f/4.2 you also knew they would be in focus at all smaller apertures including of course f/29. In fact, I was hoping that it would be impossible for you to achieve focus on both boxes using f/4.2. Based on your photos, that seems to be the case so long as I'm correct that you accidentally switched the aperture indications mentioned above.

And why does it not seem to matter where the focal point is placed on the box? (in terms of where one focuses when photographing a landscape, ie; the hyperfocal point or 1/3 the way in etc)

Unlike a landscape, all parts of the side of the box facing the camera were the same distance from the sensor. If you had turned the box so its side was at an angle to the sensor's plane, that would not be true. It would then matter where you place the focus point.

Remember when using Live View, you don't need to determine the hyperfocal distance or where to place a focus point; if you can get everything in focus on the top, bottom and sides, that's all that matters. I prefer using manual focus but using auto focus will also work so long as everything that you want in focus is indeed in focus.

Why all the precise measurements... ie; 35 mm, distance from the sensor plane, distance between boxes etc.

The distance between boxes wasn't critical but the other details were. I determined those details using my 35mm lens to ensure that it would be impossible to achieve focus on both boxes when shooting at f/2 but that both boxes would be in focus when shooting at f/22. Based on what I see in your images, that was demonstrated using f/4.2 and f/29 so long as I'm correct that you accidentally switched the aperture indications mentioned above.

With respect to manual focus it seems to say that manual focus is more precise than autofocus (because one can see the focus)

I disagree. As others have pointed out, if you can achieve focus using manual focus, you can also achieve it using auto focus so long as the focus point is placed on a part of the scene that has sufficient contrast to allow the auto focus to work properly. Similarly, if you can achieve focus using auto focus, you can achieve it using manual focus.

When using manual focus, you can observe whether the image is in focus. When using auto focus, you can observe whether the camera indicates that you have achieved focus.

However, there are four ways you can know for sure that all parts of the image are in focus if you are using a tripod:

1) Use a magnified Live View to examine all parts of the image;
2) Have a total command of information provided in a depth of field chart and know with great certainty the distance between the camera and all parts of the image; or
3) Have a total command of using the hyperfocal distance, which is not possible on all lenses; or
4) Review the image in a magnified view after you capture it.

The easiest of those four methods are the first and last methods for me and perhaps for you too. If you're going to go to the trouble to magnify the image on the LCD to check for sharpness (as you should), it makes sense to me in all cases allowing sufficient time and use of a tripod to do that before capturing the image. So, for me, the first method is the best fit when I'm using a tripod. If I am not using a tripod, the last method works best for me.

The primary point I'm trying to make boils down to this: You asked Frank which part of his image he would focus on. I responded that you don't need to determine the ideal point if you mount the camera on a tripod, use Live View magnified, focus somewhere in the middle distance from the camera, and adjust the aperture setting until everything is in focus. I added in this thread that you can use manual focus and not even have to worry about where to place a focus point.

[Brownbear]

Hi Mike,

Thank you for addressing my questions.

I double checked the apertures and they match the images.

When I view the images the ones photographed with the larger aperture of 4.2 appear to be in sharper focus to me. My assumption is based on the clarity of the fine print, ie the fine print in the bottom left hand corner of the Triscuit box. But of course it only makes sense that if one had 6 boxes instead of 2 boxes a smaller aperture would be needed to achieve focus on all the boxes.

When I did this exercise I tried it a few smaller apertures but I didn't see any difference in the focus, even at F8. It could be that I need to wear my reading glasses when looking at live view or that my criteria for focus based on the fine print is not the best way to ascertain focus?

Thank you for taking the time to add extra details to help my understanding. Very helpful.

I now understand the benefits of Live View, and it is far easier to use than I expected and I will continue to experiment with it.

I might have to do the box exercise again?

Thank you.

Terminology fixed. Yes, AF-S 9 points

[Mike Buckley]

When I did this exercise I tried it a few smaller apertures but I didn't see any difference in the focus, even at F8.

It's possible that your largest aperture was not large enough to make it impossible to get both boxes in focus. If that's the case, changing to f/8 would only improve the quality of the sharpness, not the focus itself.

It could be that I need to wear my reading glasses when looking at live view or that my criteria for focus based on the fine print is not the best way to ascertain focus?

There are better subjects to have used in this situation than print on a box but they might not have been immediately at hand or would have taken a lot longer to set up. I could have devised a demonstration outside using much greater distances between two subjects that would have served the purpose better but that situation would have been more inconvenient. In the end, you seem to now understand the helpfulness of using Live View while shooting a scene, so that's all that matters.

I might have to do the box exercise again?

I wouldn't recommend that. I think you're better off spending your time making keepers or mastering some other aspect of photography.

[Brownbear]

Thank you

It's possible that your largest aperture was not large enough to make it impossible to get both boxes in focus. If that's the case, changing to f/8 would only improve the quality of the sharpness, not the focus itself.



There are better subjects to have used in this situation than print on a box but they might not have been immediately at hand or would have taken a lot longer to set up. I could have devised a demonstration outside using much greater distances between two subjects that would have served the purpose better but that situation would have been more inconvenient. In the end, you seem to now understand the helpfulness of using Live View while shooting a scene, so that's all that matters.



I wouldn't recommend that. I think you're better off spending your time making keepers or mastering some other aspect of photography.

[Mike Buckley]

Christina,

We need to revisit a subject we have discussed often.

Auto ISO with aperture priority on a tripod? I thought that was a big NO-NO!

I responded earlier in this thread and many other times in the past that I would normally agree that it's best to avoid using Auto ISO when using a tripod. My thinking was that I would always want to use the base ISO my camera provides when using a tripod, so there would be no reason to use Auto ISO.

However, I came upon a situation this morning photographing this waterfall when I wanted to use a shutter speed of a minimum of 1/500 to stop the action of the water and I wanted to use f/8 because of the sharpness of my lens at that aperture. More important, using the camera's base ISO was less important than being able to control the shutter speed and the aperture setting. The camera was already set on Auto ISO at that minimum shutter speed so I left it enabled.

Naturally, I could have disabled Auto ISO and used shutter priority and changed the ISO until the aperture was f/8. Similarly, I could have used aperture priority, which I use 99% of the time, and changed the ISO until the shutter was 1/500. In this case, it seemed to be easier and quicker for me leave the camera set to Auto ISO and aperture priority, letting the camera make the ISO adjustment automatically.

The moral of the story: Though there are certain generalities that will hold true for a particular style of shooting perhaps 99% of the time, we need to think through each situation and be open-minded that perhaps that generality might not hold true 1% of the time.

[Brownbear]

Hi Mike,

Thank you for taking the time to share, provide me with some new insights and enlighten me on possibilities. Truly appreciated.

That's a beautiful image... I have yet to find a waterfall that I can take an image from a low perspective, and I would need boots as well as stilts to get through the deep water that never freezes here... One day I will try freezing the water, but you also provided me with further insight on how I might manage silky water trying shutter speed priority instead of manual (when the largest aperture and lowest possible iso will not allow a slow enough shutter speed)

Truly appreciated.

Christina,

We need to revisit a subject we have discussed often.



I responded earlier in this thread and many other times in the past that I would normally agree that it's best to avoid using Auto ISO when using a tripod. My thinking was that I would always want to use the base ISO my camera provides when using a tripod, so there would be no reason to use Auto ISO.

However, I came upon a situation this morning photographing this waterfall when I wanted to use a shutter speed of a minimum of 1/500 to stop the action of the water and I wanted to use f/8 because of the sharpness of my lens at that aperture. More important, using the camera's base ISO was less important than being able to control the shutter speed and the aperture setting. The camera was already set on Auto ISO at that minimum shutter speed so I left it enabled.

Naturally, I could have disabled Auto ISO and used shutter priority and changed the ISO until the aperture was f/8. Similarly, I could have used aperture priority, which I use 99% of the time, and changed the ISO until the shutter was 1/500. In this case, it seemed to be easier and quicker for me leave the camera set to Auto ISO and aperture priority, letting the camera make the ISO adjustment automatically.

The moral of the story: Though there are certain generalities that will hold true for a particular style of shooting perhaps 99% of the time, we need to think through each situation and be open-minded that perhaps that generality might not hold true 1% of the time.

[Brownbear]

I just thought I should add a comment, just in case I've frightened any technophobes from trying out the high tech features on their cameras to say that...

I quite like Live View!

I'm delighted that I finally got around to trying it. As a matter of fact, I'm using it by choice.

Thank you Mike.

[Mike Buckley]

You're very welcome, Christina.

Now that you like using Live View, be aware that on a sunny day with your camera positioned in a particular position relative to the sun, you won't be able to see the image in the LCD unless you clasp both your hands around the LCD and bury your face within your hands to shield the sun from it. Otherwise, use a Hoodman Loupe or a similar device.

On a separate note, I assume your camera has an electronic level. While in Live View, press the Info button either three or four times (I can't remember) to display the level. When the level is yellow, that indicates that the camera is not level. When it's green, that indicates that it is level.

However, some landscape scenes that don't involve a lake or ocean are better captured not level. So, know when to use the level and when not to use it when composing your shot.