I gotta ask

[Mike Buckley]

One thing that gets me about this whole subject is the media and adverts - 4x4's great to get up to speed but in real terms no better at stopping and that's the real problem made worse by the fact that people can drive faster in them.

Many of them also have a higher center of gravity because they need the clearance to go over large rocks and the like while doing off-road driving. Drivers are too often unaware that any car, whether four-wheel drive or not, will tend to flip over going around a curve when driving too fast and that the higher the center of gravity, the greater the tendency to flip over even in completely dry conditions.

[Saorsa]

That advice depends on a lot of different factors. One of which being whether a car is front or rear wheel drive.

I agree though many with four wheel drive vehicles don't realize that slamming on the brakes makes it a no wheel drive or steering vehicle.

[Mike Buckley]

That advice depends on a lot of different factors. One of which being whether a car is front or rear wheel drive.

According to the Bridgestone Winter Driving School, "Regardless of whether your vehicle is rear-wheel, front-wheel or all-wheel drive, the results of a loss of balance are the same, Pearl explains. What you need to understand is where the bulk of your vehicle's weight resides and how your engine power can affect that weight." See Items 6 & 7 in this article for further clarification.

[flashback]

One thing I do if I get the opportunity is, after a first (2-4 inches) snow head to an empty parking lot, throw the car into a skid and play around. It's amazing how much better I respond when I need to if I've had the non-emergent opportunity to loose traction.

[ajohnw]

As I have done a lot of work on traction control which aims to prevent many of the problems people have in snow and ice etc I feel that there is a need to warn people about certain advice before they try it.

Turning into a skid is a good idea if you can but in the conditions being discussed acceleration isn't. The first reason for not doing that is that the skid has occurred because the vehicle is travelling too quickly. The second if rear wheel drive and that happens to get some grip the back end is likely to flick out the other way. Same with front wheel drive plus the car steering in that direction if it can. In practice in either case the wheels may spin up anyway if track type techniques are used. The reason for the acceleration is that it enhances the dynamics and corrects the vehicle more quickly - if there is plenty of grip. In truly bad condition there isn't enough grip about to do that and it's likely to result in a skld in the other direction. The answer is to shed speed as gently as possible without locking any wheels up. In some instances turning into a skid might leave a strong chance of the whole side of a car finishing up in a ditch. Some might also turn into it way past the point where the car has corrected and finish up with the whole car going where they didn't want the back end to go.

The winter driving school comment about front wheel drive cars reminds me of uk discussion back in the 80's and even earlier so I couldn't help looking up an Accord's weight distribution which happens to be 60/40. The 60 is why front wheel drive is better in slippery snow. I suspect every one who has driven both in the UK would agree with that. The nearest I have come to something not front wheel drive was a mid engined Lotus. Lifting off the gas is going to have little effect on what the weight distribution happens to be at the time. The brakes have been designed to cope with that aspect as well.

The answer to the whole thing really is to drive smoothly at a sensible speed and remember to pull away with a lot of care. In some ways it's best not to stop especially on a hill. Many cars with a manual gearbox will pull away very smoothly via the clutch at tick over. Drive an auto and lacking aids very light pedal presses are needed and some manufactures recommend either selecting 1st or 2nd. Going on our last bad winter some people using 8 speed electronic boxes and rear wheel drive had terrible problems. I always wonder what Clarkson drives in the Cotswolds in bad winters.

John
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[HenkB]

We get plenty of snow here in New England, but that is not a barrier to photography. What is a barrier is the cold, especially on windy nights. I've done a bit of night photography recently, and after an hour or so, with a lot of standing around, it gets punishing.

The other barrier is parking. Heavily traveled roads tend to have snow berms that make safe parking dicey. Foot access across them is usually no problem. Towns are so strapped for funds that conservation areas have their parking areas go unplowed for several days after a major snowfall - all this complicated by the snow berm left by the road clearance operations. In general our parking areas seem to have to wait for the point at which the highway dept decides to break out the front loaders. Time to go shooting gravestones; the cemeteries get plowed immediately, of course.

[zen]

The ability of owners (of the urban variety who do NOT need such a vehicle) to properly drive these things seems to be in inverse proportion to the size of them. Unfortunately the brain size of the person behind the wheel also seems to diminish as the size of the vehicle increases!

Now, now, Donald. You've no doubt seen a few large vehicle drivers act like jackasses on the road, but not all such drivers have pea sized brains. Here in Western New York, we are in the midst of a good old fashioned winter, now some 12-14" of snow in my driveway. Other communities out here near Lake Erie are well past 36". I do drive a large vehicle, an all wheel drive SUV, needed to carry family plus luggage plus two large camera bags, all for when I go a-wandering in the deserts, mountains and blizzards.

BTW, it was zero degrees F. here this AM. Plows out and about, including the private guy who does our driveway.

Here in WNY, MOST folks do reasonably well in the snow, but as others have mentioned, the melt-freeze-melt-freeze cycles and black ice cause the problems. AWD vehicles can give one a false sense of security, for as others have said, they are easy to get going, but no better than any other vehicle in stopping. Good winter tires are a big help, but not a panacea. Winter driving skills are like any other; the more you do of it, the better you get. So those of us who live in heavy snow areas, in spite of the size of our vehicles, usually do reasonably well.

Thanks for CiC, and especially for your b+w images. They are spectacular.

Zen

[DanK]

The other barrier is parking. Heavily traveled roads tend to have snow berms that make safe parking dicey. Foot access across them is usually no problem. Towns are so strapped for funds that conservation areas have their parking areas go unplowed for several days after a major snowfall - all this complicated by the snow berm left by the road clearance operations. In general our parking areas seem to have to wait for the point at which the highway dept decides to break out the front loaders. Time to go shooting gravestones; the cemeteries get plowed immediately, of course.

Yes, parking gets progressively worse all winter, as the snow berms gradually grow. And not everyone is good about clearing walkways.

Here is an iPhone shot out my front door this morning:

[rpcrowe]

Haven't been bothered by snow since I moved to Southern California. Its about 68 degrees F. (20 C.) outside right now. I can drive for an hour to play in the snow and then come home and strip to my bathing suit and flip flops to wash my car...

A friend of mine who retired from the military in the state of North Dakota said that he decided where to live by starting to walk with a snow shovel over his shoulder. He said that he settled in the first place in which someone asked him what that funny looking shovel was used for

[chauncey]

I grew accustom to Chevy Suburban's while living in the mountains of Colorado where snow is measured in feet...over the years, I've owned three and drove them to death and love them to this day.

[gredawarha]

Not snowy in the UK at the moment but we have had torrential rain (for UK standards) over Christmas. My work office is next to a river and dispite many warning of the rain and the very good chance that the River Wey would burst it's banks severley some people still left their cars in the riverside car park. Pretty foolish. A little camera phone video I shot when I sneaked out of the office for a look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTWzUgqzqvU

Darren

[Marie Hass]

Our driveway is literaally a 1/8th mile ski slope down the ridge line with a "Z" drop midway. I can thank my SCCA race car parents (when they taught me to drive - in a rear wheel drive vehicle) for taking me to empty spots on freshly plowed parking lots and making me maneuver around obstacles.

[revi]

I was taught to brake before the curve (and never in the curve) for dry roads...
Anyway, here they shut down public transport by road when there's 5 cm of snow... (happens once or twice a year).
Let's not discuss driving styles under such conditions (or phone use )

[IzzieK]

Wheeeeeeeeeeee.....!!! I can just imagine slippin' and slidin' there. That would be fun!

Our driveway is literaally a 1/8th mile ski slope down the ridge line with a "Z" drop midway. I can thank my SCCA race car parents (when they taught me to drive - in a rear wheel drive vehicle) for taking me to empty spots on freshly plowed parking lots and making me maneuver around obstacles.

[bambleweeney]

As an ex-pat living in France I have to say that generally French driving varies from the comically unaware (on good days) to the insanely suicidal (on less than good days) and although I have a French car I seem to have been remarkably fortunate to acquire one of the few that is equipped with indicators and mirrors
However in winter and in snowy conditions it's a totally different story and while driving along in snowy conditions one can see that many French drivers have opted to take their cars off the road and into fields for what I can only assume are reasons of safety.
Sigh ....

[drjuice]

Richard (rpcrowe to you folks) forgot one tiny detail about life in SoCal. That is what you see in other folks' pictures of your snowstorms is what happens in SoCal as soon as it rains heavily.

We had a heavy (for us) rainstorm a couple of weeks ago and I had to go from the San Gabriel Valley to west LA, a drive of about 42 miles each way. For the part on the freeways (about 21 miles in each direction), I counted the number of cars on the shoulder, i.e., the most obvious sign of being in some kind of distress. The total was 108 going the appointment and 215 coming home.

Sheesh! And, I'd be willing to wager that virtually all of those folks are from one of the snowy places in y'all's images.

BTW - the official rainfall total from the USWeather Bureau was 0.45 inches and it was a good bit less in many areas.

I'm jes' sayin'....

virginia