Not Red Eyes ... but

[RonH]

Any ideas as to how to remove this eye colour ... seems that iPhone4 pics with led flash result in 'not red eyes' but this kind of reflection. I tried cloning out right down at pixel level but my result made them look worse

Would appreciate help, thanks.


I should have added that I have Photoshop Elements 8 with which to make adjustments

[herbert]

Hi Ron,

I had a similar problem to solve when processing family pictures from Christmas. It seems that the white eye problem was only present on the same small child. He was only 4 months old and had very light blue eyes. Your picture looks like a young child with fair hair so I am guessing it is light blue eyes again.

Red eye reduction does not work. My solution was to clone the eye from someone else. It is a bit of a cheat but makes the photo look much better so who cares.

I was lucky because the father was in the same photo most of the time and so I just cloned his eye across to his son. Only I can see the clone job. Everyone else thinks it is magic.

See if you can find a good image of an eye to use as the source. Then have a go at cloning it in. To clone from a different image you can simply select one as the clone source and start painting into the second image. Do the cloning on a new layer. This allows you to erase it and try again if you are not happy. You can also reduce the layer opacity to adjust the cloning strength.

If you want to avoid having to go through this each time then the only solution is to use off camera flash. When the light is in direct line with the camera and at the same height then it bounces straight back to the camera from the back of the eye. Even moving the flash 12 inches can reduce the problem. Bouncing off a ceiling is even better as the light looks more natural when coming from above.

Alex

[RonH]

Thanks for those tips, Alex. I hadn't thought of using another pair of eyes

These pics were emailed to me from Aussie ... uploaded from iPhone so I had no control of the flash. Is it common now that these devices with led flash will often cause 'non red eye'? I guess if it is that some smart software developer will come out with a 'flash eye' correction ... at least I hope so

[herbert]

Is it common now that these devices with led flash will often cause 'non red eye'?

I am not sure about this. Any flash will be designed to produce a neutral white light (or a close approximation). So the problem will still exist for non LED flash. The photos I worked on were from a point and shoot camera which I think had a standard flash tube and capicitor.

The white eye problem is harder to solve than red eye. Red eye reduction works by desaturating the red colour. This looks ok if there is still some other colour present. Otherwise the eye will look grey when the red is removed.

White eye has very little or no colour. The image pixels are burnt out. There is no information in a white pixel other than it is not black. This means that the best you can achieve is to turn the white to a grey.

The best an automated tool would be able to do would be to provide a choice of colour for the eye and allow you to specify the width of the iris and the pupil. It would then fill in a fake eye using an iris pattern and your chosen colour. The eye could be adjusted to match the exposure of the surrounding image. A nice touch would be to add a catch light sparkle to the fake eye. This would be expected for the look the on camera flash would have given the photo.

This sort of auto generation of eyes is already done for computer generated images of people. It would be nice to see a tool for photos using the same technology. For the moment I'll just stick to cloning.

Alex

[RonH]

Interesting one Alex. Apart from the occasional 'dog photo', I had not come across this white eye problem ... red eye being of course the bright lighting of the red retina of the eye. Can't recall ever getting 'white eye' in my own pics but I do receive quite a few emailed pics now from mobile phones that seem to be prone to this burn out.

As you say, cloning an eye works a treat. Thanks. Ron

[krispix]

I can't offer any solution other than Alex's idea, but the whole thing is quite interesting and I'd like to know more on the cause of this phenomenon. 'Red Eye' is caused by the flash reflecting off the retina at the back of the eyeball, but what could cause 'White Eye'?

[GrahamH]

Perhaps try this (and if you post a larger crop for us to try solutions on): -
In elements - copy image, invert, convert to BW, add layer mask. Hide all of copy image and bring back only the pupils.
I tried it on the image posted, but it's so small, difficult to work with.
Graham

[RonH]

...and if you post a larger crop for us to try solutions on ...
Graham

The file of the small boy was very small and I overwrote it when I 'corrected' with the cloned eye. Should have kept the originals but they are only used in a 6x4 picture album so my correction was acceptable at the small size. Wouldn't stand up to serious inspection ... but it was my first attempt

However, I attach 3 pictures of a dog that were emailed to me, one of the pics has both a white and a red eye. There must be a very specific flash lighting angle that causes this ... or the dog is crossed eyed . Which he is not I hasten to add. Again, these pics are ex mob/led flash, of small file size emailed to me and not particularly sharp.

[Dave Humphries]

The colour of human eyes we see in normal lighting (e.g. blue, grey, brown, etc.) has little or nothing to do with the typical red-eye reflection, which is from the blood vessels behind the retina shining out through the pupil (the hole behind the lens).

However, there are other things that can cause a non red reflections, particularly in animals. Also, a lot has to do with where the subject's gaze is directed, as seen in the last three dog pics. The dog may not be cross eyed, and I'm no veterinarian (sp?), but (when necessary); can dogs 'scan for threats' in two directions at once? i.e. give up binocular vision for greater coverage.

In your original case Ron, it is probably just that the iPhone is automatically applying its own built in red-eye reduction to the jpg and that is being fooled by the eye colour and producing this result.

Have a read of the wikipedia link above for more info.

Cheers,

[RonH]

Interesting link Dave, especially the subsequent link to 'eyeshine'. I guess that if we all 'had eyes in the back of our heads' photography would be so much easier

[Dave Humphries]

I guess that if we all 'had eyes in the back of our heads' photography would be so much easier

Who says we haven't - and that as a species, we just learned to walk 'backwards' quicker than 'forwards'

Cheers,

[sarah777]

To RonH and herbert,

I know I am finding these messages very late, but I am hoping that you can still see this thread.

It is very important that the children in your photos with the white eye reflection see a doctor as soon as possible.

Having a white or greenish reflection in photos instead of the typical red eye is often indicative of retinoblastoma, a cancer of the eye. It is important to seek treatment right away because this kind of cancer can spread to the brain.

[Mike Buckley]

I have sent a PM to Ron and Herbert advising them of the message posted immediately before this one. I mention this so they aren't bombarded with lots of private messages.

[RonH]

I have just returned from a bit of a holiday and have seen various posts/messages about 'white eyes' which is somewhat alarming. Thanks all for bringing this to my attention.

Looking back, I note that 'white eyes' also showed up on the dog in the same thread which leads me to think that it is a 'flash' problem rather than a medical condition? On one of the dog pics there is both a red and a white eye. All these pics were sent to me, taken with an iPhone4 ... the dog also showing some 'white eye' so I am thinking & hoping that it really is to do with the camera media rather than a specific serious medical condition. I do not wish to raise a false alarm across the miles from here in Norway to Australia where these pics were taken. But of cause its better to be safe than sorry so I would appreciate knowing if the 'alarms' you have kindly flagged are based upon actual medical knowledge & differences between man and dog retina reflection possibilities.

Thanks again
Ron

[rpcrowe]

No problem for me! I never use my phone as a camera! I then have no problems with eyes or any other phone related glitches. If I really needed a small size camera, I would bring my wife's Canon P&S which is smaller than a smart phone yet has far-far greater capabilities.

BTW: I also don't try to drive nails with a screwdriver.

[Ken MT]

From Wikipedia
Eyeshine is a visible effect of the tapetum lucidum. When light shines into the eye of an animal having a tapetum lucidum, the pupil appears to glow. Eyeshine can be seen in many animals, in nature and in flash photographs. In low light, a hand-held flashlight is sufficient to produce eyeshine that is highly visible to humans (despite our inferior night vision); this technique, spotlighting, is used by naturalists and hunters to search for animals at night. Eyeshine occurs in a wide variety of colors including white, blue, green, yellow, pink and red. However, since eyeshine leads to iridescence, the color varies slightly with the angle at which it is seen and the color of the source light.

Despite it being present in some primates, the human eye has no tapetum lucidum, hence no eyeshine. However, in humans and animals two effects can occur that may resemble eyeshine: leukocoria (white shine, indicative of abnormalities including cataracts, cancers, and other problems) and red-eye effect.

[RonH]

Thanks Ken for this read. I am going to contact my daughter in Oz and ask her to take another iPhone flash pic of her son when he is looking directly into the camera lens to see if the effect is still 'white'. She is pregnant again and I don't wish to worry her unnecessarily ... I can make a simple request so that she need not get concerned unless I see 'white' again and no 'red eye'. I hope that all flash results are red eye.
Ron

[johnlee2012]

If your camera can't solve the red eyes problem, you can edit it with Photoshop or others photo software that can handle red eyes

[RonH]

If your camera can't solve the red eyes problem, you can edit it with Photoshop or others photo software that can handle red eyes

Thanks for your post johnlee, your 1st in this forum so can I welcome you to CiC. I am sure you will have a lot of fun with us, enjoy the team spirit and entry to competitions.
Regarding this thread of mine. iPhone is no problem for red eye ... its the 'white eye' we are trying to resolve and hoping that it is not a real problem with the child. I am checking this out.
Ron

[RonH]

Just an update about 'white eyes'.
This problem seems to be well known among iPhone users ... one example on the net:
https://discussions.apple.com/thread...art=0&tstart=0

With respect to my own situation, I have received a bundle of flash pics and some show red and others white from the same subject which is a relief

One post maybe sums it up ...

Please - don't panic the parents!!
If you get white eyes with an iPhone 4 flash, that's a WELL KNOWN PROBLEM with the iPhone 4 / 4S flash.
It has nothing to do with your kids eyes. As if parents needed to worry more...
I am surprised that iPhoto red eye removal tool can't detect these. As far as I am aware, the iPhone's built in edit tool also doesn't remove them

But also worth being cautious and seeking medical advice if there is any doubt.