Blacksmith in action - disappointing

[Jim A]

Taken a couple of days ago, there is a lot of noise and banding is this photo, which is surprising. Have reduced the noise in my photo-editor to the level I can do without too much loss. I will go along another day and have another attempt, without two of our grandkids in tow. Settings were f3.5; 12mms (18mms equiv); ISO800; 1/320sec. How would I be best in improving this shot? Next time, use a tripod or monopod? Use my speedlight?

[Chataignier]

A lot of the interest in "blacksmith" photos comes from the glowing metal and the flame in the furnace, so dont use flash which will raise the light level overall, so reducing the impact of the glowing metal etc. Better to try for reduced ambient light, so giving more impact to the glowing areas. Winter is coming down your way, try visiting early or late when it's dark(ish) outside and use a tripod to manage the longer exposure or raise the ISO.

[Geoff F]

I think that is as good as you are going to get under those conditions, Jim. It is an acceptable action shot for me.

Your camera settings seemed to be OK although ideally I would have liked a narrower aperture. But to get that, something else would become wrong.

I assume you were fairly close to this scene so although flash is an option I suspect the flash area would be too narrow and there is nothing from which to bounce your flash.

Maybe reflectors/studio type lighting would work, but is that really an option here?

I think I would try bracketed exposures, by all means try a tripod if you can, then do a 'hand made' merge from those shots using layers and masks. Set the base image shutter speed to suit the action parts then carefully add in bits from the other shots to improve those overly bright/dark static areas.

[billtils]

I agree wth Geoff on shooting from a tripod and using bracketed exposures, you can then selectively blend these to give the moody effect that David mentions while avoiding burned out highlights from the fire but keeping some detail in the dark areas.

It's an interesting scene with huge potential!

[Donald]

I think the problem is that it's too busy. What are we meant to focus attention on. Think more about composition and less about the technical bits. By the way, why worry about noise. You say there too much banding. The way to get rid of that is to introduce noise into the image. If the image is good enough then people will not notice noise.

[Manfred M]

+1 for those who have suggested that the scene is too busy and for suggesting flash. Tripod might help a tiny bit, but will likely get in the way and you will still be limited by the ambient light.

In terms of handling the busy scene, get in closer and see if you can use a speedlight bounced behind you at where a wall and ceiling intersect.

I had a very similar shot a few years ago. This is the original taken at ISO 640 at f/5 and 1/25th second at 24mm.






Here is the re-take a year later with bounce flash. I used f/5. 1/60th second at ISO 250 at 35mm focal length. You would not believe the number of people who told me that bounce flash would not work because the ceilings are too high, the walls and ceiling were not white (it was an old log building), etc. This is pretty well SOOC. I used TTL flash control and metered on the carpenter's face.

[DanK]

I agree with Donald that it's busy. However, I would go further. I think you should start by deciding what the subject is. Is it the environment, including the objects? That might call for a wide perspective and flash. The moody environment? Then as David suggests, I'd either use no flash or a very weak flash. The blacksmith? In that case, I'd use a much narrower angle of view, remove many of the bright distractions, and leave more stuff in front of her than behind.

However, I disagree with Donald's advice about the technical side. I certainly wouldn't add more noise, as the image is already quite noisy, and the noise is much more apparent than banding. How much this problem matters is a matter of preference, of course, as well as how you are going to display it. The smaller you display the image, the less apparent the noise will be. I would expect it to be quite noticeable in a print of moderate size.

As others have said, this is a very difficult shot because of the tonal range. Bracketing would be difficult because the smith won't stand still. (There are ways of handling this, but it's not a simple automatic blend.)

However, I dropped your image into Photoshop, and to my surprise, the flames aren't burned out. I find a luminosity value of 83 out of 100. Most of the image is very dark, clumped near the bottom of the histogram. I have a hunch that's the problem.

I don't know what camera you are using, but many modern cameras can get quite clean images at ISO 800--as long as you expose to the right. It's in the shadows that the impact of increasing ISO is most apparent. (I posted a series of images here a few years ago to demonstrate this, but I don't have the link.) For example, I recently took an indoor, window-light candid of a young child at ISO 800 using my 5D IV, which is a 5-year-old model, so not up to the most recent sensor standards. The image was very smooth and needed no noise reduction whatever. I don't post photos of children without the parents' permission, so you'll have to take my word for the quality of the image, but here is the histogram:



In this case, the dynamic range spans almost the full range the sensor can handle, but most of the image is not at the low end, and the image quality was good.

So one thing I would try is to increase the exposure enough that the flames just barely clip. If need be, you can darken the image in post to get the moody appearance. I don't know whether this will be enough, given the fact that most of the image is toward the dark end of the histogram, but it might help.

[billtils]

...I think you should start by deciding what the subject is. ...The blacksmith?...

Oops - I was looking it it as a scene and totally overlooked the fact that there was an active person in it. If you want to go that way, perhaps it's a job for whatever editing software you use.

Manfred's illustration of the potential benefit of simplifying the composition is worth a look but there are important differences in the scenes - mainly the fire in yours - and as David says, the glow of the fire and the hot metal can add a lot if interest.

[Manfred M]

Oops - I was looking it it as a scene and totally overlooked the fact that there was an active person in it. If you want to go that way, perhaps it's a job for whatever editing software you use.

Manfred's illustration of the potential benefit of simplifying the composition is worth a look but there are important differences in the scenes - mainly the fire in yours - and as David says, the glow of the fire and the hot metal can add a lot if interest.

Which is the point of determining what the "subject" of the shot is. In Jim's original; the position of the forge and the position and direction of the blacksmith do cause visual confusion as neither clearly dominates the scene, so we really have two main subjects in the shot.

I find it best to have one main focus, so composition does matter. Having a shot of the blacksmith interacting with the forge so that they become the subject is one approach. Another would be to downplay either the forge of the blacksmith and give visual precedence to the other.

[rpcrowe]

Being able to add just a touch of extra light (as in Manfred's second example: above) often really improves an image. I always have at least one, and often two flash units along with me. For travel and walk-around photography with my Sony gear, I use Godox/Flashpoint 350S hotshoe units. They are small, lightweight and a pair can function as a master/slave combination... I always bounce my flash and usually modify them with a Joe Demb reflector/diffuser. Being able to add light and have the result look like no light has been added is a skill worth learning...

However, IMO, it "just may" be a bit easier to do this with a little tighter cropping. Note that Manfred's second image is a slightly tighter crop than the first. I have more problems composing and lighting an UWA image than doing so for a image shot with a slightly longer focal length lens... Manfred's second image still includes enough of the area to be a great environmental portrait.

I also agree that having the blacksmith's back to the fire, sort of divides the above posted image and gives primary emphasis to neither the smith nor the fire...

However, and this is a BIG HOWEVER it is pretty difficult for me to compose and light creatively when photography is my secondary interest; especially when entertaining and educating kids is the primary concern. I have found that even when I am out with my wife, I don't necessarily pay 100% attention to my photography... I tend to get my best shots when I am alone...

[xpatUSA]

Taken a couple of days ago, there is a lot of noise and banding in this photo, which is surprising.

Hello Jim,

Quite a difficult scene. However, it is said that modern cameras (what is yours?) can easily shoot at 800 ISO without undue amounts of noise. What is less said - at least by Marketing - is that the statement applies to a fully-framed shot of a gray card, IMHO.

That brings us to scenes like yours where, because the shot was not allowed to blow those pesky windows, the sensor exposure in the dark zones was pretty low and that is why and where the noise is.

Then, in post, if one were to push (bring up) the shadow levels, the noise is made more visible. With my old Sigma cameras, I can get similarly bad noise in parts of the frame -even though I shoot at native 100 ISO only. Based on the foregoing, perhaps you will be less surprised the next time it happens to you ...

Have reduced the noise in my photo-editor to the level I can do without too much loss. I will go along another day and have another attempt, without two of our grandkids in tow. Settings were f3.5; 12mms (18mms equiv); ISO800; 1/320sec. How would I be best in improving this shot? Next time, use a tripod or monopod? Use my speedlight?

I have little advice to offer over what has already been said, although I did like the idea of reducing the scene contrast or DR by reducing natural lighting, and consequently have the blacksmith pose so as to allow a longer shutter time. A bonus (?) might be longer streaks of glowing embers going up the chimney ...

[Geoff F]

Cropping the left side to just remove that piece of hanging cloth and a similar amount from the top would certainly give a 'cleaner' and more focused scene. But a lot of clutter is part of a blacksmith's workshop; so what are your intentions with regard to composition? It is your decision.

[Wandjina]

I think the subject is fascinating. I am almost tempted to fly across the "ditch" and photograph him to.
It is a very busy image. I would love to have you move to your right and recompose the image and tighten it, so the coals of the fire behind the Blacksmith and his anvil.
Just a thought.

[Merlin52]

Do you need to shoot at 1/320 ? With a wide lens you could probably hand-hold at 1/80th and gain 2 stops of ISO reduction to ISO 200. The only thing then is whether the slower shutter speed impacts on your subject's sharpness from their movement.

[pschlute]

+1 for Donald's suggestion to not worry about the noise. I would have tried two different approaches here:

1. bump the ISO right up high and create a grainy image. I think it would suit the subject well.

2. Slow the shutter speed right down. The arm wielding the hammer would be blurred but that would create an impression of action.

[xpatUSA]

John. Peter,

I'm wondering about that hammer.

Even at 1/320 sec there is motion in the embers going up the chimney.



But the hammer is showing no motion at all and there are no high-speed sparks streaking out from the impact although it may not have struck yet.



So maybe the blacksmith was just resting the hammer on the work?

[Manfred M]

John. Peter,

I'm wondering about that hammer.

Even at 1/320 sec there is motion in the embers going up the chimney.



But the hammer is showing no motion at all and there are no high-speed sparks streaking out from the impact although it may not have struck yet.



So maybe the blacksmith was just resting the hammer on the work?

1. There are likely no sparks from the hammer as the blacksmith has not hit the work piece before the the picture was taken.

2. The embers heading up the chimney are moving quickly because the forge is using forced air, which is going to move those embers quite quickly for there to be noticeable motion blur. A forge will heat steel to temperatures around its melting point, so plenty of combustion air is used in the process.

[xpatUSA]

1. There are likely no sparks from the hammer as the blacksmith has not hit the work piece before the the picture was taken.

Which is why I said "although it may not have struck yet". Irrespective of the hammer position, there is still no pixel evidence of motion at 400% zoom. Us engineers should be able to figure it out, but this is the Real World, so let's not bother, eh?

2. The embers heading up the chimney are moving quickly because the forge is using forced air, which is going to move those embers quite quickly for there to be noticeable motion blur.

[Manfred M]

Which is why I said "although it may not have struck yet". Irrespective of the hammer position, there is still no pixel evidence of motion at 400% zoom. Us engineers should be able to figure it out, but this is the Real World, so let's not bother, eh?

If you have ever watched a blacksmith at work, the first few taps on the work piece that comes out of the forge are very gentle, so very little motion would be expected. Once she starts working it, the sparks will really fly.

My old Machinery's handbook is not old enough to give me the information, but 200 - 400 cfm would probably do at least a few inches of water as the pressure. Nicely said, high volume, not a lot of pressure.

[William W]

Taken a couple of days ago, there is a lot of noise and banding is this photo, which is surprising. Have reduced the noise in my photo-editor to the level I can do without too much loss. I will go along another day and have another attempt, without two of our grandkids in tow. Settings were f3.5; 12mms (18mms equiv); ISO800; 1/320sec. How would I be best in improving this shot? Next time, use a tripod or monopod? Use my speedlight?

Camera Position.

In your shot the Viewer's Eye enters from camera left, runs along the un-used anvil, into the furnace an then either out the first window - or - across the Blacksmith's profile and out the second window.

If you want to attain (and maintain) Viewer Interest in an Environmental Portrait, especially a busy environment, then attaining the best Camera Position is critical: arguably more critical than any other form of Portrait Photography.

My view is that you should (secondarily) consider all the other (excellent) considerations and arguments which have been provided, but as to the 'best' improving for next time - Camera Position is the answer.

WW