my first foray into the dark side (black & white)

[JBW]

[Manfred M]

Okay Brian - a few questions for you:

1. Why did you decide to go to B&W on this image;

2. What works better as a B&W versus colour in this image; and

3. What works better in the colour original than in the B&W conversion.

This is the basic list I run through every time I look at doing a B&W conversion. For me, there has to be a deliberate and concrete reason to do an image in either colour or B&W and I have to understand why I went there. Often I will go B&W to "simplify" an image from a compositional standpoint (get rid of too many colours) or to give it a "period" look; i.e. something that is pre-1960s looking.

I don't know what the coloured original looks like, but there aren't enough tonal differences in this image for it to work for me as a B&W shot.

[JBW]

Okay Brian - a few questions for you:

1. Why did you decide to go to B&W on this image;

2. What works better as a B&W versus colour in this image; and

3. What works better in the colour original than in the B&W conversion.

This is the basic list I run through every time I look at doing a B&W conversion. For me, there has to be a deliberate and concrete reason to do an image in either colour or B&W and I have to understand why I went there. Often I will go B&W to "simplify" an image from a compositional standpoint (get rid of too many colours) or to give it a "period" look; i.e. something that is pre-1960s looking.

I don't know what the coloured original looks like, but there aren't enough tonal differences in this image for it to work for me as a B&W shot.

I was going to do a little sharpening with a desaturated gaussian blur. When I saw it desaturated it just grabbed me. Here is the original.

[Manfred M]

I find that the colour version works better. Not enough tonal range in the image for the B&W version to work, in my view.

[ashcroft]

I think BW normally works best where there is a strong structure. It could be either a simple, even minimalist scene but where there are some strong structural elements. Or, it could be a detailed scene, but there still needs to be a strong sense of structure, because by removing colour you are reducing strucure as colour helps to separate elements in a shot.

Your image has a lot of detail, but it seems to me to not have enough structure for BW. Just my thoughts - I could be wrong.

Perhaps you could try a more simple subject/scene?

[Mike Buckley]

When I saw it desaturated it just grabbed me.

When making a monochrome image, it is almost always best to convert using a color filter rather than desaturating. The exceptions are relatively rare and meet specific criteria that make them appropriate for desaturation. Converting with a color filter gives you the choice of which color in the spectrum filters the image best and it gives you the choice of how strong the filter should be applied. Converting with a color filter keeps all image data whereas desaturation eliminates two-thirds of the data. Those are just the two most important reasons to convert using a color filter.

[mknittle]

I use Mikes method mostly. and also channel mixer. When I shoot for B&W I look for Tonal range as Manfred mentioned and/or subjects of differing textures. You don't necessarily have to have both but one has to be strong. notice how the top of the fence stands out from the texture below and above it.

[Shadowman]

It works as a B & W in revealing different textures, some of the items (leaves in tree) need better closeup. Perhaps if some of the leaves were lying on the grass; the contrast in textures would be more relevant. Nice capture.

[ajohnw]

I don't think that the shot will work well in B&W and also has a problem in that medium - too many dense shadows.

When I play with black and white I usually use "fx-foundary - photo - effects - eg black and white - gimp style" as it makes better use of the information in the colour image. A low value of wavelet sharpen can also help punch up the result a bit if needed. The results are likely to be better than unsharp mask.

Trying to do something about the dark areas - upped out in levels and moved the middle input slider a lot and then duplicated the result in soft light to get some contrast back with an opacity of about 50% I then proceeded as mentioned and obtained this. I feel the tones are better but still lacking. i also added a tinting layer in colour mode as black and white often benefits from it. Overdone so you can see it. A golden brown colour, just bucket fill the tint layer and adjust the opacity. Sometimes a warming or cooling slider is better.



There are some good tutorials on converting to black and white on youtube using photoshop. Useful source of ideas. Sometimes tone mapping is used initially and general contrast adjustments, You have those in RT. I always use eg black and white for conversion though.

John
-

[JBW]

I find that the colour version works better. Not enough tonal range in the image for the B&W version to work, in my view.

this is just what I was hoping for. I am very unsure of the parameters for this type of shot.

[JBW]

I don't think that the shot will work well in B&W and also has a problem in that medium - too many dense shadows.

a warming or cooling slider is better.



There are some good tutorials on converting to black and white on youtube using photoshop. Useful source of ideas. Sometimes tone mapping is used initially and general contrast adjustments, You have those in RT. I always use eg black and white for conversion though.

John
-

this is more complex than I thought.

[JBW]

I think BW normally works best where there is a strong structure. It could be either a simple, even minimalist scene but where there are some strong structural elements. Or, it could be a detailed scene, but there still needs to be a strong sense of structure, because by removing colour you are reducing strucure as colour helps to separate elements in a shot.

Your image has a lot of detail, but it seems to me to not have enough structure for BW. Just my thoughts - I could be wrong.

Perhaps you could try a more simple subject/scene?

maybe a close crop on the leafless tree?

[JBW]

When making a monochrome image, it is almost always best to convert using a color filter rather than desaturating. The exceptions are relatively rare and meet specific criteria that make them appropriate for desaturation. Converting with a color filter gives you the choice of which color in the spectrum filters the image best and it gives you the choice of how strong the filter should be applied. Converting with a color filter keeps all image data whereas desaturation eliminates two-thirds of the data. Those are just the two most important reasons to convert using a color filter.

I will give this a try.

[JBW]

I use Mikes method mostly. and also channel mixer. When I shoot for B&W I look for Tonal range as Manfred mentioned and/or subjects of differing textures. You don't necessarily have to have both but one has to be strong. notice how the top of the fence stands out from the texture below and above it.

I am guessing that by fence you mean roof?

[JBW]

It works as a B & W in revealing different textures, some of the items (leaves in tree) need better closeup. Perhaps if some of the leaves were lying on the grass; the contrast in textures would be more relevant. Nice capture.

Hmmm that is one more thing to consider. You see grass but I shot part of my roof with trees behind it. But it is a grass like material.

[Mike Buckley]

Several people have mentioned the need for a large tonal range in color to be successfully converted to monochrome. That really depends on the style of monochrome image you hope to achieve. As an example, if you want to achieve the darkest blacks and brightest whites, a large tonal range in color is helpful. However, if the darkest blacks and the brightest whites are not your goal, a large tonal range is not needed. As an example, some photographers specialize in photographs with a relatively limited tonal range and contrast.

[JBW]

Several people have mentioned the need for a large tonal range in color to be successfully converted to monochrome. That really depends on the style of monochrome image you hope to achieve. As an example, if you want to achieve the darkest blacks and brightest whites, a large tonal range in color is helpful. However, if the darkest blacks and the brightest whites are not your goal, a large tonal range is not needed. As an example, some photographers specialize in photographs with a relatively limited tonal range and contrast.

I am beginning to suspect that I have truly moved into the Twilight Zone. Only there could the concept of more colour means better monochrome develop.

[mknittle]

I am guessing that by fence you mean roof?

OOPs hard to tell yeah that is it

[mknittle]

I am beginning to suspect that I have truly moved into the Twilight Zone. Only there could the concept of more colour means better monochrome develop.

It is a different world in monochrome After a while you develop a weird sort of 3D glasses view of the world.

[JBW]

It is a different world in monochrome After a while you develop a weird sort of 3D glasses view of the world.