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Thread: mid tone?

  1. #1

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    mid tone?

    Dear all:

    How to get the mid tone (should be her face or dress) in such a speed, distance and small portion of the whole picture?
    Her face is blurred when cropped and print up to 5x7 print.
    Any advices? please.

    Bill
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    jiro's Avatar
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    Willie or Jiro is fine by me.

    Re: mid tone?

    If you are too far from your subject and want to nail the exposure right and if you are under the same type of lighting as she has, use the palm of your hand as your gray card and meter from there. That would give you more than 60% good reading than the matrix or evaluative metering from the camera. Just a suggestion as I have tried it before and it does work for me reasonably.

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    Re: mid tone?

    I suppose you could try spot metering but the danger is that will concentrate more on her dark clothes and still give an incorrect reading.

    Alternatively, accept that your camera is going to mostly expose for white and add a little positive exposure compensation; but beware of over exposing the white.

    Either way, I suspect that in this case, most of my 'exposure' would come from editing with an adjustment layer and masks.

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    Re: mid tone?

    Bill, this is also a case in which exposure bracketing might help you pin down the exposure. If your camera has exposure bracketing in three shot bursts, try that. When you review the shots on your computer, decide which is the best exposure. This should remain constant for future shoots.

    Additionally, could you catch the skater when she is closer to your camera position?

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    Re: mid tone?

    Hi Bill,

    I'm not sure if you're asking about exposure, or stopping the motion, or both?

    In terms of exposure - for this kind of thing - I'd take a quick test shot in Av mode - dial in a bit of exposure compensation whilst taking a few more test shots (until the exposure looked about right on the camera review screen) - and then dial those settings directly into the camera in manual mode - that way you won't have to worry about the camera selecting different exposures at different times.

    In terms of freezing the action, you'll probably need something around 1/640th, which can be a big ask indoors. Personally, I'd open the lens right up - set the ISO pretty high - and go from there.

    Hope this helps

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    Re: mid tone?

    I don't think you're too far off there Bill, it could have been much worse exposure wise.

    The bigger problem at such distance is, as you say, the softness - I can't see EXIF data to advise on your choice of shutter speed vs aperture and iso.

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    Re: mid tone?

    ISO 800, which is the best I can use in not further blurring her face - noise
    1/250 apertue - good enough as she is still not that fast in action. Spot metering is used.
    2.8, using 7D, 70-200mm L IS USM
    Exposure compensation + 1

    answering some of the response. - yes, but I have somehow the same dissatisfaction on her face.

    bracketing will slow down the 7-8 frames per second .

    Do you guys think the below pictures is better or have more advise.


    thanks

    Or otherwise, really need to start another sharp learning curve with Adobe CS5, wacom pan.......
    anyway, is not that much after you spend on 7D, L lens and custom bracket.... seems to be a road of no return.
    I should consider metering my hand but how can I lock this correct exposure during my whole photo session.

    the second pictures is from a closer distance and may be flash is used.

    thanks

    Bill

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    Re: mid tone?

    Sorry, got the photo here now.

    now,

    don't know why the tinypic can't show up here, hope you can get the second pictures in the attachment.

    Bill
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    jiro's Avatar
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    Willie or Jiro is fine by me.

    Re: mid tone?

    I believe your 7D has a button that can lock the AE and the AF just like Nikon does. If you shoot in RAW you can edit your shots better and I don't think you are that far off on your exposure either.

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    Re: mid tone?

    Figure out what settings are correct, then put it on manual mode with those settings. No need to use AE or AF lock that way.

    My kids play hockey, and it is one of the most challenging photo environments I've found. High ISO, high shutter speed, and tungsten white balance seem to help. But the best bet is a fast lens.

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    Re: mid tone?

    Don't know why the tinypic can't show up here, hope you can get the second pictures in the attachment.


    I get the same problem, Bill. I can load the first image with tinypics but any additional images won't work; so I add them by going through my galleries which I use for forum posts.

    This does mean that I have to initially upload a partially completed post then add subsequent photos as edits.

    It works in a roundabout fashion. However, there is probably a simpler answer available to all those cleverer people.

    But with regard to your shots. I think you have probably done all that you can at the time of shooting. Your only real hope of serious improvement involves some careful editing. Possibly starting with two slightly different versions of the original Raw image.
    Last edited by Colin Southern; 14th October 2011 at 03:11 AM.

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    Re: mid tone?

    Hi Bill,

    You're doing so much right, I hesitate to ask an obvious question - you are panning with your daughter aren't you?
    I do ask because in the first images, which I assume are uncropped full frame and cropped, the background looks sharper than your daughter, so either a focus error on that one (due to close proximity of the hoarding behind), the lens is not good wide open, or you're just not panning smoothly enough.

    I should know better, but there are some birds in flight I can take and others I regularly stuff up through getting over excited and (probably) introducing camera shake. On which topic, if you can squeeze 1/500 or more, it would be worth it I think.

    I'd have thought a 7D could be used at 1600 iso if not significant cropping without noise, if not that makes me wonder about how you are post processing - you are shooting RAW I hope?

    'Going manual' to preset the expsoure was going to be my suggestion too

    Cheers,

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    Re: mid tone?

    I used Raw and found that it already helped me a lot in keeping the quality.

    Almost every pictures, i need to push up the brightness. Then what I normaly do is crop it. and that is the time the blurred face exist.

    AE, AF only last for few second after I release it.

    I think it is time to figure out how to manually pre-set the exposure ( after aim at my hand) to the manual dial.

    Yes, I always need to pan so as to follow her skating. May try to use a mono-tripod and see anything better.

    The attached picture is with flash, same with 7D, 70-200mm. Seems to be with flash the face look much natural, or may some of you consider it is a bit too bright.....


    thanks for all the good advices, and do you guys use any noise reduction program in addition to photo-shop?

    after all the questions, you all know that the ultimate answer may be get a F.2.8 400MM ( need no more cropping) and turn pro!!! and go bankrupt at the same time.

    Keep input, please.

    thanks so much.

    Bill
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    Re: mid tone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff F View Post
    I get the same problem, Bill. I can load the first image with tinypics but any additional images won't work
    Hi Geoff,

    I get the same problem too -- the work-around I use is to open another tab on my broswer - reply to a post in another thread - use the uploader there - and then close that tab (once the URL is on the clipboard). Bit of a pain, but at least it works.

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    Re: mid tone?

    Hi again Bill,

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Yeung View Post
    I think it is time to figure out how to manually pre-set the exposure ( after aim at my hand) to the manual dial.
    Yes - easy. Just look at what settings the camera gives you in aperture priority mode, and then use the same figures in manual mode.

    do you guys use any noise reduction program in addition to photo-shop?
    If you don't under-expose and don't crop excessively then you shouldn't need any. High ISO doesn't cause noise per se - it just results in a lower dynamic range capability. It's the lowering dynamic range when coupled with under-exposure that results in noise being visible.

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    Re: mid tone?

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought with the 7D that as long as you kept the * button pressed the exposure stayed locked, even with multiple exposures?

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    Re: mid tone?

    As to posting pics via tinypic, not sure if you prefer the thumbnails, but you can get a larger view if after you push the 'upload now' button, you copy the url that it spits back at you and then past it into the main body of the message. You can do this as many times as you want for multiple pics - click the 'upload' button next to the tinypic symbol for the subsequent images. That is how I did the pics below:

    mid tone?

    mid tone?

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    Re: mid tone?

    That is basically the way I do it, Toby, but I can only upload one image that way. When I try a second it just doesn't work. Next time I will have a look to see if there is something simple which I am missing.

    Bill, getting a 400 mm F2.8 lens should certainly solve all your problems; except one. And my only suggestion for that would involve a mask and a gun.

    But getting more serious. I assume you are cropping the Raw image. What, if any, noise reduction are you using at that stage?

    And have you tried a little selective sharpening on just her face after converting and transferring to the CS5 main work window. I also sometimes find a loss of sharpness at this stage.

    If problems occur, I may try a little selective Smart Sharpen directly after transferring to the main window. And there is often a little bit of Unsharp Mask possible as a last part of the edit.

  19. #19
    William W's Avatar
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    Re: mid tone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Yeung View Post
    How to get the mid tone (should be her face or dress) in such a speed, distance and small portion of the whole picture? Her face is blurred when cropped and print up to 5x7 prints. Any advices? please.
    What Tobman wrote is the answer to your question.

    This shooting scenario is an Ice Rink with over head lighting.

    Typically, (mainly for OH&S reasons I expect in Canada also) the lighting will be even across the whole Ice Area, and although overhead lighting the added bonus is the white ice aids as a reflector upwards.

    Typically learners (children) skate often with their heads slightly down anyway, so there is usually not that much "raccoon eyes" resulting from the over head lighting: and in some venues the lights are not directly downward facing: so Ice Rinks are one of the BEST indoor venues for sans flash shooting, (compared to School Gyms for BBall and Judo etc)

    There are many methods of metering before you begin shooting: an incident reading if you can get onto the ice, or you can get your daughter to press the button if you have an HH meter; get her to hold a grey card and spot meter that up close; spot her face and open up about 1 stop (trial that as skin tines vary).

    ***

    I believe the reason that setting a definitive WB seems to assist (I concur) is that likely the Lighting Banks are Three Phase. When shooting at a Tv faster than the electricity’s cycle rate, you will notice a shift in colour as the phases change.

    At least if the WB is set (not auto) it seems the results are easier to manage, (less chaotic) as the camera does not seem to be “thinking” too much and therefore not “adjusting”

    ***

    On the matter of blurring, your Tv is too slow for transverse motion, Ice Skating even for a young child reasonably proficient, you need about 1/640s, as she gets faster 1/800s will be your minimum. For head on movement you might be able to pull Tv = 1/320s if you get her hands at the top of their rhythmic motion.

    Using a 7D, ISO800 to way too low for (assumed) using a lens with a Maximum Aperture of F/2.8 for this shooting scenario.

    You need to pump to ISO1600 at least, ISO3200 will be better, to manage the Tv you require. It is difficult to tell on the small sample images posted but I think they are underexposed and you have pushed brightness and or exposure in Post Production.

    You must never UNDEREXPOSE when using high ISO especially sans flash or other hard lighting. Underexposing at high ISO will simple exacerbate both the noise and frustration levels.

    ***

    A 7D is quite capable of producing quality 5x7 (and 10 x 8) prints from ISO3200.

    ***

    I have used a 7D but don't own one, however here are some comparative examples shot in similar shooting conditions, to back up my statement:


    This image holds quite well in an 11 inches wide print and was made years ago, using a 20D at ISO “H” (equiv ISO3200) and actually shot a little Underexposed, to make the Tv required:
    mid tone?

    This is a 5D, at ISO1600:
    mid tone?


    ***

    Make your light meter reading and then shoot "M" Manual Mode - I would suggest you do not shoot bursts, but make yours the rhythm of the skater and time the shoot - for jumps, predict and shot a burst of three only, and NEVER underexpose.


    WW

    PS. Also do not underexpose, never-ever, well if you aboslutely have to: yes, . . . but for that little girl on ice with a 7D . . . I would be at ISO64,000 and I would sacrifice Tv to 1/500s, before I went under.
    Last edited by William W; 15th October 2011 at 02:21 AM. Reason: spelling and added the PS

  20. #20
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    Re: mid tone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Yeung View Post
    Yes, I always need to pan so as to follow her skating. May try to use a mono-tripod and see anything better. . . you all know that the ultimate answer may be get a F.2.8 400MM
    Yes you should consider using a monopod.
    Attach the lens, via the lens collar to the pod, not to the camera.
    I use a ball head - but that is not necessary for this type of shooting as you are shooting in one horizontal plane.

    No the 400/2.8L MkII is not the only solution.
    What model 70 to 200/2.8 do you use?

    WW

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