harmony is not the elimination of extremes but the proper balancing of them?

[JBW]

[Shadowman]

Very nice, that darkness really sets off the flower so well.

[Manfred M]

Brian - while your transition to your new camera is unfolding all kinds of new opportunities, the one thing that I find you are still not getting optimal images.

1. Use a much tighter crop - if the information in the image is not contributing to the overall image, get rid of it. This is best done in camera, but can usually been done in post. As you are not shooting to print, you have much more flexibility than those of us that do.

2, Don't centre the main part of the subject - as much as I do not like referring to the "rules of composition"; think about the "rule of thirds" when you compose.

[JBW]

Brian - while your transition to your new camera is unfolding all kinds of new opportunities, the one thing that I find you are still not getting optimal images.

1. Use a much tighter crop - if the information in the image is not contributing to the overall image, get rid of it. This is best done in camera, but can usually been done in post. As you are not shooting to print, you have much more flexibility than those of us that do.

2, Don't centre the main part of the subject - as much as I do not like referring to the "rules of composition"; think about the "rule of thirds" when you compose.

Grumpy, I could have gone with a tighter crop but what would that have done to the horseshoe effect of the leaves? a little tighter yes but a lot tighter not so sure.

As for rule of thirds i did consider it. But i felt the picture worked better by lining it up with parallel lines. It also works well in rule of fifths. Ans as much as it is close to centered it isn't really centered centered.

[JBW]

Very nice, that darkness really sets off the flower so well.

[Manfred M]

I don't know Brian - I fiddled with the image for a couple of minutes and came up with this. It also includes a black point / white point adjustment as the histogram of you shot shows underexposure.

[bnnrcn]

Nice flowers Brian I like Manfred's edit but I don't know if the darkness in your edit was intentional or not.

[JBW]

Nice flowers Brian I like Manfred's edit but I don't know if the darkness in your edit was intentional or not.

the darkness was intentional.

[JBW]

I don't know Brian - I fiddled with the image for a couple of minutes and came up with this. It also includes a black point / white point adjustment as the histogram of you shot shows underexposure.

Seems to me that the balance has been lost. The interplay between the black, the bright colours and the leaves is missing?

[tao2]

Hi Brian,

Ah think a small step left and half a step forward would remove the 2 or 3 leaves along the bottom. This'd give ye total black down the left and an unobtrusive framing of background green on the right. Ah wouldn't crop in tightly or brighten it. Ah think the subdued lighting and colours work; the flower reaching towards the light.

My maxim is - when ah think the photo is set - look all around the viewfinder...then look again, then move or recompose, if necessary .

[Manfred M]

My maxim is - when ah think the photo is set - look all around the viewfinder...then look again, then move or recompose, if necessary .

Excellent advice and very similar to my workflow.

1. First scan is the body of the image looking for things that shouldn't be there or are "missing";

2. Second scan is around the edges of the viewfinder, looking for details along the edges, again things that have crept in or things I have cut off that I shouldn't have.

That being said, the technique is a lot easier to learn when using a tripod, as your camera doesn't move as you are examining things.

[Manfred M]

Seems to me that the balance has been lost. The interplay between the black, the bright colours and the leaves is missing?

Brian you are to busy concentrating on a particular aspect of the composition, without looking at the whole picture. I will be the first to admit that personal tastes and preference play a large part in ones photographic style. Photography is a creative process and does not work in a "paint by numbers" approach, i.e. follow the rules of composition and you will end up with a great image.

In my view, one of the most important compositional rules isn't really covered by any composition books I've ever seen. Robert Capa was 100% bang on when he said "If your pictures aren't good enough, you aren't close enough." I suspect that if you listen to those worlds of wisdom, your compositions will get stronger.

When you look at the image, you see "balance"; and quite frankly I'm someone who looks for that as well. On the other hand, relying on elements that do not add to the composition to provide balance is generally going to result in an image that is weaker than it could be. The other issue with balance is that the elements that provide the balance should not detract the viewer from the subject and while I hate putting words in the mouths of others, think this might be where Robert is coming from.

Finally, every compositional decision you make is going to have positive and negative impacts. Removing an element that detracts the viewer can alter the balance of the image. If removing the element strengthens the composition more than leaving it in, then this is something to be considered. Conversely, if removing the element adversely affects the overall look and feel to the point where it results in a less pleasing composition, then perhaps it should stay in the shot and other techniques like burning of vignetting can be used to lessen the distracting effect, without adversely affecting the way you want to portray the image.

Enough of my rambling...

[xpatUSA]

As for rule of thirds i did consider it. But i felt the picture worked better by lining it up with parallel lines. It also works well in rule of fifths. Ans as much as it is close to centered it isn't really centered centered.

From that point of view, I also like what RawTherapee calls "harmonic means" which are related to the much-maligned Golden Ratio, as you probably know. Often, with the so-called rule-of-thirds, stuff ends up too far from the middle for my taste.

[JohnRostron]

Very nice, that darkness really sets off the flower so well.

I agree with Shadowman here but not with those who would crop. I find that the composition suits the subject very well. Personally, I find that placing the subject in the centre is ideal. The dark background is what makes it so Brian!

John

[flashback]

The only change I would suggest is to clone out the leaf in the yellow highlighted area. To my eye the balance of extremes is that of the green L-shaped area of leaves and the red L-shaped area of emptyness. I see no reason why they they can't balance. I think it presents an interesting symmetry. So I wouldn't consider the empty, black area as negative space, if anything it's positive space, as it's adding itself as an integral element of the photo.

[JBW]

Brian you are to busy concentrating on a particular aspect of the composition, without looking at the whole picture. I will be the first to admit that personal tastes and preference play a large part in ones photographic style. Photography is a creative process and does not work in a "paint by numbers" approach, i.e. follow the rules of composition and you will end up with a great image. .

Enough of my rambling...

Rarely in this group do I flat out say 'you're wrong' but here I shall. Please ramble on. Your rambling gives me the clues I need! I had fixated on a video about using 'linear' instead of the camera settings. It would jam my histograph to the left. From now I stick with the camera.

[xpatUSA]

I had fixated on a video about using 'linear' instead of the camera settings. It would jam my [histogram] to the left. From now I stick with the camera.

Perhaps you could let linear remain in your mind and never say "never", so to speak?

For example, I have found that a linear curve can help with image contrast in full-spectrum work, IR work - not to mention extracting B&W from raw channels. Or even just playing with the gamma slider to get a darker background, i.e. your image becomes somewhere between linear and fully "gamma-compensated".

[DanK]

It might help to separate two separate issues. I agree with Manfred that increasing the tonal range is a big help. It looked drab before making that change. The cropping issue is clearly a matter of taste. Unlike Jack, I found the original unbalanced because of the large amount of empty space. It gave me the impression--which you showed in a later part of the thread was an illusion--that the flower was below center, not centered. I would crop on all sides, not as tightly as Manfred did, with more cropping on the top and left. But that's just my taste.

[Manfred M]

Rarely in this group do I flat out say 'you're wrong' but here I shall.

Brian you can say that all you want, but what you are saying is incorrect as there is no right or wrong answer when it comes to composition. There are different approaches and both of us can prefer one over the other. It is quite clear that a number of the members have different takes in both of our approaches. It would probably be more correct to say that you prefer your approach, while I find mine works far better.

What I did is offer an explanation what parts of your approach does not work for me and why. I also showed how I would correct the parts of your compositional approach that does not work particularly well, in my view.

I saw three roughly equal sized patterns; the black, the leaves and the flowers and I used cropping and placement that shows these patterns, areas of interest and balance.





I liked the way that the red and blue areas nest into each other and direct to the lower right corner and upper left corner, respectively. The stems projects into the "blue" field and almost turns the red field into an arrow shape.

[Inkanyezi]

Rarely in this group do I flat out say 'you're wrong' but here I shall.

I would say that I am 100% with Brian on this issue. The key is 'subtle'. It is a matter of seeing, what you see. If there's anything I might have done, it would be adding just a tad of vibrance to the flower, by slightly lifting the curve, without touching neither white nor black points. I would hold back the darker parts, to retain the subdued green on the leaves.

Of course anyone may prefer their own image style, but I see the eye of an artist in the image. To me, it has got the 'wow' factor.

I'll show the idea with an image of the curve tool. In my opinion, the magic will be lost if the flowers are brightened too much or too much contrast is applied.