Full Frame or Crop Frame for Wildlife?

[AB26]

Thank you again for all the responses.

No matter what camera you are using, you can shoot Wildlife. You can shoot Wildlife with an iPad if you wish. You can indeed capture any image with any imaging device. Depending on what standards you set for yourself, that will determine what device you will use to capture the image.

The objective of learning is to move up in the ranks. As a community of learning photographers I do believe the reason for us wishing to learn, is to improve the quality of our imagery. Your ultimate goal will determine how much you wish to learn and improve.

If you are going to race a Ferrari do not opt choosing a Mini to do so, you will only kill yourself.

Next time a new member asks an opinion about upgrading or buying a new camera it might be a good idea to disregard personal bias and give advice that will lead to making an informed decision.

All evidence points in one direction, if you really wish to go where the Gurus go, follow the Gurus.

[DanK]

Next time a new member asks an opinion about upgrading or buying a new camera it might be a good idea to disregard personal bias and give advice that will lead to making an informed decision.

yes, please. That's what some of us were trying to do, although in this case, it was not a new member asking an opinion about upgrading. it was you asking whether there was ANY advantage to crop for wildlife.

All evidence points in one direction.

It doesn't.

The best thing one can do, when folks have equipment questions, is give them an evenhanded explanation of the tradeoffs involved in each of the choices. FF vs. crop, like any other format choice, entails tradeoffs, which are more problematic for some people than for others. If it didn't, the same considerations arguing for FF would suggest that you should be shooting medium format. I'll assume you don't. Why not? Hmm. Maybe cost? Size and weight? the need for far longer and more expensive lenses?

In addition, I think it is very helpful to help folks put the equipment choices they face in the context of other factors that will influence the quality of their prints. Often, the choice of equipment--particularly the body--should be fairly low on their list of concerns.

Re gurus: I have had opportunities to shoot with a number of pros. None of them told me that it was important for me to switch to FF, although several talked about its advantages, and two or three of them have crop-sensor images among their published works. I shoot a lot of macro, and when I was dithering about whether to buy a FF, I wrote down a list of pros AND CONS of going FF for macro. Brian Valentine, one of the best macro photographers on the web, wrote back that my list was in his opinion correct and that he often uses a crop-sensor camera in doing 1:1 macros (even though he, like me, has a 5D, his a II, mine a III). Tradeoffs, tradeoffs.

[ajohnw]

AB26 - Have you ever chased a Ferrari on real roads? I suspect not. In many instances the only real advantage they have is top speed.

John
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[Saorsa]

AB26 - Have you ever chased a Ferrari on real roads? I suspect not. In many instances the only real advantage they have is top speed.

John
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No, not a Ferrari but I do know that Corvettes don't like following a Lotus Cortina on a gravel road.

[ajohnw]

No, not a Ferrari but I do know that Corvettes don't like following a Lotus Cortina on a gravel road.

LOL and the Lotus Cortina was probably the worst car that Lotus had a hand in. I drove one briefly and got the feeling that Ford wanted it to be Ford like. Being fair though I had driven an early Elan and had been looking at Cooper S's.

John
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[Saorsa]

LOL and the Lotus Cortina was probably the worst car that Lotus had a hand in. I drove one briefly and got the feeling that Ford wanted it to be Ford like. Being fair though I had driven an early Elan and had been looking at Cooper S's.

John
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It was built to fit the 1600cc saloon class for racing and needed to be homologated by selling 500 or so. But, yeah, the body did flex a bit but it did well in it's class.

[Manfred M]

All evidence points in one direction, if you really wish to go where the Gurus go, follow the Gurus.

Sorry to disagree with you, but this statement is one I can't agree with. If you are shooting with the funds and support that professional wildlife photographers shoot with; i.e. lots of money to invest in gear, the logisitics to get the gear to the site and have it set up, assistants, proper hides to set up in; then I might lean in that direction.

On the other hand, a mere mortal that has to finance and lug his or her own gear without vehicle support and assistants and is shooting from their own vehicle, a shared "safari" vehicle or from a public viewing area, then no; I think the answer would be different.

Based on your logic, I would have to say I want to drive a Formula 1 car, as it is obviously what the top drivers in the world use. Unfortunately, cost aside, they are not a vehicle one would want to drive to work with. Even if they were street legal, the highway driving and stop and go city driving I have to do to get to the office would not be something that would be particularly pleasant in a F1 car. The same arguement would go for the appropriate camera for wildlife; unless you are using them in the same ways as the pros do, they may not be the best choice for the amateur traveling through a game park.

[AB26]

AB26 - Have you ever chased a Ferrari on real roads? I suspect not. In many instances the only real advantage they have is top speed.

John
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No John, I won't make an ass of myself trying to chase a Ferrari. Unless it is driven by a six year old on a gravel road.

[NorthernFocus]

...All evidence points in one direction, if you really wish to go where the Gurus go, follow the Gurus.

Manufacturers sponsor pros with free equipment in the hopes of attracting such addled followers...

[NorthernFocus]

...Based on your logic, I would have to say I want to drive a Formula 1 car, as it is obviously what the top drivers in the world use...

Manfred, I think anyone can see that this is a ridiculous analogy. Most people have enough common sense to realize pros at that level have entire support crews to help maintain the equipment, special venues to drive on, etc. Any practical comparison should really be aimed at a professional skill level one may actually hope to achieve. So with the driving analogy, one should attempt to emulate a broader spectrum of pro drivers not the pinnacle of the profession. So in North America that would suggest we all drive yellow Ford LTDs

[AB26]

Sorry to disagree with you,

Manfred,

Ok, let’s see why you should agree with me.

Funds and support for Wildlife Photographers might not always be what we may think it is. It is not a life of glamour glory and unlimited funds. Greg Du Toit sold his car some years ago to buy equipment. He spends months away from home. Often his wife had to take care of him after contracting malaria or bilharzia, again.

As mere mortals we do lug around some gear. At the moment I am lugging around just over 7Kg of gear. If I am going to lug around more gear I will have to spend some time in the gym or find an assistant (like my wife) to help me carry my gear. (That is one more thing I have noticed about some of these guys, they have very supporting wives.)
Yes sure, if you are on a shared ”safari” you might consider a different camera – a bridge camera. In that case you must not expect to get anything better than rather mediocre shots.

It is possible driving a F1 on a public road. It is just not legal and very practical.
I once had the privilege of shooting a Canon 1Dx, on top of the Magalies mountain (with the lens it was a little heavier than my D200). A Japanese tourist handed me her camera and asked me to take a photo of her and her partner. (I was up there with my D200 and she most probably trusted me with the 1Dx) Some may say it is a ton of bricks to lug around, this little Japanese girl was prepared to lug it around to get the shots. (An overkill, but still.)

When on “safari” you will always have a base camp. Do you really need to lug around ALL of your gear when you know what you will be going for the day? Will you lug around a 600mm lens if you know the Elephants are going to be no more than 50m away from you? Do you need to take the 24-70mm lens with you if you are going to wait for the Fish Eagle to make its catch?

If you are an amateur travelling trough a game park you probably do not expect to get the shots the Gurus do. The average game park travelling amateur does not join a photographic forum to learn how to take better pictures.
I do consider any member of CiC to be a game park travelling amateur.

I look at the images of Sean McHugh and say to myself that is where I want to go. That is my goal and my reason to be a member of CiC. I want to learn to take pictures like Greg Du Toit and Sean McHugh. I do not want to be a game park travelling amateur.

I want to follow the Gurus not the game park amateurs. Where do other members of CiC want to go, forever game park travelling amateurs? Then they should stick to P&S cameras and be happy with the results they get.

[dabhand]

No John, I won't make an ass of myself trying to chase a Ferrari. Unless it is driven by a six year old on a gravel road.

Andre - you'd be ok with a mini against a ferrari in auto-test, rally cross, stage rally, hill climb - in fact in most any branch of motor sport except on open road / race track tarmac. You'd have to step up to an Audi though for the Le Mans 24.

As always - horses for courses.

steve

[ajohnw]

It's a fact that no one other than a person who is ready to drive a Formulae 1 car and has spent a fair amount of time in a simulator would stand an earthly of driving one at anything remotely like it's full potential. Rather a lot of people wouldn't even fit in one.

Having owned a number of cars after they were a few years old that I could not even afford now they are older that tend to attract attention from other drivers of a particular type I have been chased a number of times and chased others at times too - if they appear to be trying. Track driving a la Clarkson Top Gear etc Ferrari great, drive on the road like that = death. Actually I think this has been proven by McClaren's first car. I saw an F1 driver helicopter in to a local proving ground to finalise the settings on the car a couple of times. Looking at the very feint skid marks approaching all of the corners I can remember thinking that they had got to be joking for road use - I understand a number of owners are dead. Only a rumour but may well be true.

Frankly cars are more interesting than some views expressed by a few in this thread. It's wouldn't surprise me if Colin shot crop from time to time. Anyone who is shooting wildlife is bound to at least at times for rather obvious reasons.

If you fancy M 4/3 Manfred I would go for an EM-1 if I were you. With focus peaking you can probably use some of you Nikon lenses on it. It's a bit TBD as to how good it will be but looks promising.

At one point not all that long ago I had a hesitant interest in a rather old V12 Lamborghini. Low mileage and an engine rebuild - common for this sort of ilk of car. I sat in it and as I'm 6ft 3 adjusted the seat. Tried to reach the gear lever and it was way too far away. Salesman laughed and said the trouble is that they are designed for F1 drivers. Just as well really.

John
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[Saorsa]

Manfred,

I do consider any member of CiC to be a game park travelling amateur.

I find that rather insulting.

[AB26]

I find that rather insulting.

Me too. Sorry guys - BEEG MISTAKE - the NOT disappeared!

It is truly: I do NOT consider any member of CiC to be a game park travelling amateur!

( The statement without the NOT does not make sense in English. Or does it?)

Sarosa, if you read the statement within the context you should not feel insulted.

[AB26]

Andre - you'd be ok with a mini against a ferrari in auto-test, rally cross, stage rally, hill climb - in fact in most any branch of motor sport except on open road / race track tarmac. You'd have to step up to an Audi though for the Le Mans 24.

As always - horses for courses.

steve

As it was proven in the "Dakar".

Interesting to see how the Germans are dominating motorsport.

Now, if only I could afford that Leica S2.

[Colin Southern]

It's wouldn't surprise me if Colin shot crop from time to time.

Not unless iPhone shots count. I used to shoot 1.6x crop - then moved to 1.3x crop - then FF. Nothing particularly against CF cameras - just that I generally need width more than length in a lens, and prefer the brighter viewfinders that FF offers. Since I do a lot of low-light work I suspect that I get better signal to noise ratios with FF too.

If I were shooting bears in the woods though you can be sure that I'd be using a CF camera - rented EF1200 - and stacked 1.4 & 2.0 converters (and preferably shoot from an armored vehicle in the next state).

[AB26]

At one point not all that long ago I had a hesitant interest in a rather old V12 Lamborghini. Low mileage and an engine rebuild - common for this sort of ilk of car. I sat in it and as I'm 6ft 3 adjusted the seat. Tried to reach the gear lever and it was way too far away. Salesman laughed and said the trouble is that they are designed for F1 drivers. Just as well really.

John
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You can have a Ferrari 458 Italia custom built to suit your requirements. Get one of those and go to The Stig for driving lessons so he can teach you how to catch a Mini with a Ferrari.

Same applies to FF professional cameras - if you can't handle it, stick to the ones with that green Auto emblem.

[Stagecoach]

Slow down guys, I'm still at the stage of deciding if bugs and critters can be considered as wildlife

[Colin Southern]

You can have a Ferrari 458 Italia custom built to suit your requirements. Get one of those and go to The Stig for driving lessons so he can teach you how to catch a Mini with a Ferrari.

Same applies to FF professional cameras - if you can't handle it, stick to the ones with that green Auto emblem.

I don't get the analogy; if it's OK to learn to drive in a Ferrari, why can't one learn to shoot on a FF Pro camera?