Is there a benefit of a camera with superior dynamic range?

[chauncey]

Being relatively adept at PS, I wonder about the value of having a camera that advertises having
superior DR. Can't it be duplicated in PP?


MOD Comment: originally this said "I wonder about the value of having a camera that advertises having
superior HDR", which was clarified in post #3 below.

[xpatUSA]

Being relatively adept at PS, I wonder about the value of having a camera that advertises having
superior HDR. Can't it be duplicated in PP?

My understanding of "HDR" is that it is usually a combination of several shots in post.

That is the only way I can capture a high (more than 9 EV) scene dynamic range with my Sigma cameras. Usually, I just avoid such scenes or accept that the capture will be less than perfect, necessitating a pretty fierce tone curve . . .

Is there a link to a camera that claims superior "HDR" (not DR)?

[chauncey]

My bad...mean't DR

[rpcrowe]

I have not experimented with this but, I wonder if I wanted a two stop range HDR; would a five shot series at 1/2 stop intervals look better than a three shot series at 1 stop intervals.

I don't shoot HDR often but, when I do, it is usually in 3-shot groups simply because it is so simple to shoot a 3-shot AEB group with my Canon DSLR cameras.

[Manfred M]

My high dynamic range camera is a touch over 14eV at base ISO. If I try to take a shot at sunrise or sunset with the sun in it or I take a snowscape on a sunny day or I take a night shot with street lights or I take a shot of a lake or the ocean with whitecaps on a sunny day, I have situations where the camera cannot capture the full dynamic range.

It's simply that there are many situations out there where the lighting conditions exceed the 14+ eV dynamic range that my camera has.

[Donald]

Can't it be duplicated in PP?

No. You can do lots of pseudo-HDR stuff in post processing, but HDR is a technique for capturing images in which the dynamic range for the camera sensor is too great. If it is too great, it is to great. No amount of playing about in post processing is going to recover lost detail in the original file.

[Shadowman]

Some manipulation is till required in-camera (ec) as most cameras in PSA mode seem to still overexpose, I'm talking about those cameras which are rated having high DR; specifically Fujifilm and a few of the Nikon models.

[Manfred M]

Some manipulation is till required in-camera (ec) as most cameras in PSA mode seem to still overexpose, I'm talking about those cameras which are rated having high DR; specifically Fujifilm and a few of the Nikon models.

Only if there is operator error. My high dynamic range Nikon exposes just fine. I do have to recognize situations where the reflective light meter can get fooled (just like on any other camera).

[Black Pearl]

Being relatively adept at PS, I wonder about the value of having a camera that advertises having
superior DR. Can't it be duplicated in PP?

"I've added your correction William to make this easier"

No & Yes

The maximin dynamic range a sensor can record is part of its make-up, a fixed number in other words so you can't take a sensor with a lower number and replicate the effect of a better one in post production - theres the no bit.

Except that you can increase DR if you capture a number of differing exposures and combine them using HDR (high dynamic range) or similar software into a single final file - theres the yes bit.

So no you can't replicate it is PP but yes you can use PP to increase the DR from any camera by combining multiple captures.

[bje07]

By experience if your histogram has a spike at each extremity you need to use HDR (by bracketing).

[Manfred M]

By experience if your histogram has a spike at each extremity you need to use HDR (by bracketing).

Or (if the situation allows) add light. After all, that is what flash photography is about...

[chauncey]

But you have the ability to move that histogram any which way you want...
does that not improve innate dynamic range?

[Donald]

But you have the ability to move that histogram any which way you want...
does that not improve innate dynamic range?

But the idea of HDR photography is to capture detail that would otherwise be blown and if the detail is blown, no amount of tweaking is going to bring it back. You can darken pure white and make it grey, but you're not going to recover the detail in that part of the image that was lost at the time of capture.

[xpatUSA]

But you have the ability to move that histogram any which way you want...
does that not improve innate dynamic range?

I think not. What is meant by "innate dynamic range"? Never seen that before.

[chauncey]

innate dynamic range

In this case, it meant, in my mind, what the camera is capable of coughing out.

That is true Donald, but if that histogram is narrow in scope, it can be made wider...right?

[Donald]

In this case, it meant, in my mind, what the camera is capable of coughing out.

That is true Donald, but if that histogram is narrow in scope, it can be made wider...right?

Of course, but then we're not talking about high dynamic range. If I may, I'd suggest that the issue here is in understanding what exactly is meant by HDR. It is a term that is bandied about fairly loosely in all sorts of photographic arenas and, I'm sure, not properly understood by many of those who refer to it.

Every picture has a dynamic range. High dynamic range is when that spread of light is too great for the sensor to capture in one file.

[george013]

But you have the ability to move that histogram any which way you want...
does that not improve innate dynamic range?

The dynamic range of the sensor is a measurement for the range in sensitivity for light energy to create an analogue signal.
On the light site it's limited by the maximal analogue output of the sensor, at the dark site when that signal is equal or lower as the noise signal. In photoland it's measured in stops, but it could be something else too.

The histogram is a digital representation of the digital pixel values of your picture.
What was meant by Jean is that if the whole scale in the histogram is used, that than you have used the maximum dynamic range, how big or small that may be. You can't move without clipping. If you didn't use the whole scale, than you can or could play with the exposure. But you can't change the sensitivity of the sensor.

George

[Mike Buckley]

The term, high dynamic range, is being used in this thread to have two meanings and I sense that the two usages are causing confusion.

One meaning, which appears to be intended by the OP, refers to a camera sensor that captures a wider range of luminosity values than other camera sensors. As an example, Manfred's camera that can capture all of the luminosity values in a scene that has 14eV would certainly be considered a high dynamic range camera compared to one that can only capture 9eV. It would be less confusing if we called that a superior dynamic range instead of a high dynamic range.

The other meaning, which appears not to be intended by the OP, is High Dynamic Range, typically abbreviated as HDR. That usually involves the use of at least three captures that are merged into one image file, whether merged automatically by the camera or by the user during post-processing.

[Dave Humphries]

I hope you don't mind William - and at the risk of causing more confusion - I have edited the title of the thread to be "Is there a benefit of a camera with superior dynamic range?", which it turns out was the intent.

The thread was previously called simply "high dynamic range", which as Donald and Mike point out, immediately causes readers to think of whatever their own understanding of that term might be, which varies enormously.

Since this wasn't really the question at all, but as more and more members contribute, I think it best to 'bite the bullet' and phrase things more clearly, so we don't go off in multiple disparate directions.

Cheers, Dave

[Dave Humphries]

But you have the ability to move that histogram any which way you want...
does that not improve innate dynamic range?

If you shoot at the camera's 'base ISO', that will give an output file (if shooting RAW and using the largest bit range) with the widest dynamic range the camera's sensor is capable of capturing, so in that sense only, 'changing the settings' can affect dynamic range, all other things being equal, which often they're not.

'base ISO' is often one or more stops above the absolute lowest iso speed it is possible to set for a given camera.

but if that histogram is narrow in scope, it can be made wider...right?

What I outline above will not make any difference to the histogram, the content of which is usually (always) derived from a simple 8 bit jpg representation of the image anyway. Nor does the histogram 'scale' change - it is a very blunt instrument (but useful none the less).

Being relatively adept at PS, I wonder about the value of having a camera that advertises having
superior DR. Can't it be duplicated in PP?

As many have said, if the DR of the scene exceeds what the camera can handle at the ISO necessary to capture properly exposed highlight detail, shadow detail may be 'lost in the noise', because at the higher ISO, the DR has been reduced to less than what is in the scene. This is when the only way to 'fix it in PP' is to bracket exposures (shoot multiple images which achieve detail in both highlights and shadows across two or more* image files.

* Results are believed to be better when more than two files are used, for a variety of reasons
* If shooting jpg+RAW, it may be possible to achieve a better PP result from even the single RAW file in PS/ACR/LR than the camera's 'produced on the fly' jpg** file did. I should emphasis that this is not 'HDR', due to the accurate definition given above.

** Unless this is an in-camera generated 'HDR' jpg, which may just be a fudged tone curve, or might be produced by shooting 2 or more images and doing the HDR merge there and then. More common on small sensor cameras, such as those in mobile phones, where sensor overload happens far more easily. I suspect this feature has found its way on to DSLR and IL mirror-less cameras (with large sensors) to satisfy the needs of customers who shoot such cameras exclusively on "Auto", rather than for technical need.

Obviously, if you shoot with a camera with advertised 'superior dynamic range', the point at which you'll need to bracket shots (because the scene demands it) - and then merge them in PP (perhaps using 'HDR' functionality), will be less. It all depends upon what you want to shoot.