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Thread: Manufacturers ink Vs 3rd Party ink

  1. #1

    Manufacturers ink Vs 3rd Party ink

    I'm using a Canon IP4500 printer which I've only had a few weeks and I thought I would try a CIS kit which I got for 25 on Ebay. I checked this guys feedback and they were all positive saying the ink is just as good as the Canon ink. I haven't installed it yet but would like to hear your thoughts if you've used 3rd party ink.

    I have read elsewhere with problems of clogging but iv experienced this before with my old epson printer using epson ink in fact, it was the clogging that lead to the death of that printer as I spent a whole day trying to get it to print properly and in the end I took it out to the garage and pulverized with a hammer ED: patience boy patience!

  2. #2
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    Re: Manufacturers ink Vs 3rd Party ink

    When I had a Canon PIXMA printer I experimented a bit with third party ink cartridges. If you are printing just black text, day to day images//documents, then I would think that using third part ink would be a vastly cheaper and worthwhile endeavor. After all, with some manufacturers, much of the profit comes from the continual revenue stream of new (and expensive) ink cartridges.

    On the other hand, if you are serious about your prints, there's several issue to be aware of. You are right to be concerned about clogging, but at least with my iP8500, that was not an issue . . . and you can read lots of reviews online ahead of time to make sure that your particular third party ink is not particularly problematic. However, there are other issues which are potentially more serious: print longevity and color reproduction.

    If it is a dye based printer, the type of chemical used in the dye is critical for ensuring that your print does not fade as quickly with time. In this case, not all red inks are created equal -- even if they look identical. If you're lucky, you can sometimes find longevity tests for your particular third party ink / paper type combination. In many cases, third party ink fares just fine, but in others it fails miserably. This is a hard thing to test yourself since it takes sooo much time to see whether a particular ink holds up. Some try making two prints and placing them in a sunny window for a couple weeks. This is a very crude test, but can sometimes send up red flags for the especially problematic inks.

    Another issue is color reproduction. The color gamut encompassed by third party inks might be much different (and smaller) than that reproduced by the manufacturer's ink. Colors might appear nowhere near as vibrant, for example. If you intend to make lots of photographic prints, I would definitely consider having a custom printer profile made for your favorite ink cartridge brand and printer paper type combination. Custom profiles can work wonders with third party inks. There's a number of online places that do this for $30-$50 or so last time I checked. Just google "custom printer profiles" or something similar.

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    Re: Manufacturers ink Vs 3rd Party ink

    I am looking on with interest as by co-incidence I have an Epson printer in bottom of wardrobe; not quite frustrated enough to smash it up as I could keep it running, just got fed up with time & paper wasted on cleaning. On replacement IX4000, I have not dared depart from Canon ink. One clog of 1 colour in about a years printing of photos = at least 40 x A3 sheets and 50 x A4 and a few others (empty boxes from mostly HP Premium Plus, which works far better than equivalent Canon ).

    I do always keep the covers shut when not using.

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    Re: Manufacturers ink Vs 3rd Party ink

    If you're thinking of using it for photo reproduction then you really need to do your homework. Wilhelm Imaging Research do the longevity testing for most manufacturers - many genuine inks rate between 30 and 200 years; some of the 3rd party inks were fading in 3 to 4 MONTHS.

    Could probably google out the original links if you need them.

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    Re: Manufacturers ink Vs 3rd Party ink

    Previously, I have had 2 Epson printers and both suffered with ink clog problems even with genuine ink, the auto cleaning worked OK but used ink.

    I am now using a Canon 9000, admittedly a bit more expensive so perhaps not a true comparison, but so far it is working fine and has never needed cleaning (reaches out hand and touches head for luck).

    I did once try 3rd party ink for the Epson R800 which worked but when I did some comparison tests with genuine ink I could see the difference. So, as McQ said, 3rd party stuff is good value for general office work but if you have taken a lot of trouble to get your colouration correct why take chances with the ink.

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    Re: Manufacturers ink Vs 3rd Party ink

    Some 3rd party aftermarket inks are very good, some are terrible. I use hobbicolor UW8 and highly recommend it, looks identical on wide range of comparissons on my ip4600 compared to canon oem. Rates higher than inktek and is almost as good as canon oem (not quite as light stable but still has good amount of uv additive). It seems to be the choice in canons on many large volume photoprinting forums. The pure dyes do not block and the printing places confirm this, cheap pigment inks and supposed dye inks diluted down with cheaper stuff do clog though.

    Ofcourse the good aftermarket inks are more expensive than the cheaper stuff. Inktek pops up a lot but colour and light wise it's not as good as canon oem or hobbicolor. I'd be interested if anyone can see a difference between the canon and hobbicolor prints colour wise. I will photograph one of my test pieces if you want. Specs wise it's pretty much equal excpet it's not quite as lightfast (hobbicolor distributor said but I checked this against various large volume printing forums and people agreed). I am talking about the UW8 inks they do, I know they have others but unsure how they fare. The uw8 is the one you want for the ip4500, I'll even post ya some of mine if you want to try it.

    edit: Where did you find the ip4500 since you said it was recent purchase? I've looked around for one since getting my ip4600 because it's the same printer but mine has smaller carts with no resetter also the sound dampening buffers removed and overkill on auto cleaning cycles. Wanna swap? Hehehehe just kidding. http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/index.php I found that forum quite helpful.

    I'd use the german method of refilling carts NOT the american method as that causes leaks. For the german method on your pgi8/cli8 carts (and my 520/521 or 220/221 as called in usa) you will need a 2" needle ( I use 21g 2" sharp), preferably sharp as blunt can trash sponge more over time apparently (sharps and blunts are same price).
    Last edited by Davey; 26th March 2009 at 07:55 PM.

  7. #7

    Re: Manufacturers ink Vs 3rd Party ink

    My experience so far has been that 3rd party is inferior. Some print well initially but they seem to fade very quickly compared to HP consumables. I think it is a case of getting what you pay for. Same with photo paper. I do not print too much so the cost is tolerable but I should imagine printing can become prohibitively expensive if you print on a regular basis.

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    Re: Manufacturers ink Vs 3rd Party ink

    Quote Originally Posted by Wirefox View Post
    My experience so far has been that 3rd party is inferior. Some print well initially but they seem to fade very quickly compared to HP consumables. I think it is a case of getting what you pay for. Same with photo paper. I do not print too much so the cost is tolerable but I should imagine printing can become prohibitively expensive if you print on a regular basis.
    I think that how much you invest upfront is also a factor - I've got an Epson 7800 that takes 8x 220ml carts - spent $10,000 on the setup, but I can do large prints 1/4 the cost of what I pay in town (6 x 4 prints are cheaper in town though).

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    Re: Manufacturers ink Vs 3rd Party ink

    Ink wise printing very small volumes for me isn't that much cheaper, especially since I have to order form USA and postage is more than ink cost. Even then though it works out roughly about 5 for a full set of carts (that's factoring in ink/needles/syringes and postage) when canon set would be just over 35 (maybe more with p&p). However using cheaper compatibles or cheaper ink would work out much much cheaper again but I know you don't get more than you pay for (even though sometimes you get less than what you pay for admittedly, see ipod vs cowon for instance).

    If I needed higher fade resistance I would use UV protection spray. I've no experience of uv spray yet (but remember colin recommending one that he uses on his prints) but I've recently put a poster I printed on those inks in frame on gatepost (behind plastic so will get full UV hit and it's south south west facing) so will be interesting to see how that fares.

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    Re: Manufacturers ink Vs 3rd Party ink

    Quote Originally Posted by Davey View Post
    If I needed higher fade resistance I would use UV protection spray. I've no experience of uv spray yet (but remember colin recommending one that he uses on his prints) but I've recently put a poster I printed on those inks in frame on gatepost (behind plastic so will get full UV hit and it's south south west facing) so will be interesting to see how that fares.
    UV protectant sprays are part of the solution, but people need to remember that there's really no such thing as a (tested) archival ink or archival paper - it's tested as an ink and paper COMBINATION because of the chemical reaction that occurs between the two.

    If you get a chance, have a read of an interview with Henry Wilhelm - founder of Wilhelm Imaging Labs (who do the longevity testing for most printer manufacturers) ...

    http://www.bermangraphics.com/press/wilhelm.htm

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    Re: Manufacturers ink Vs 3rd Party ink

    Quote Originally Posted by Davey View Post



    edit: Where did you find the ip4500 since you said it was recent purchase? I've looked around for one since getting my ip4600 because it's the same printer but mine has smaller carts with no resetter also the sound dampening buffers removed and overkill on auto cleaning cycles. Wanna swap? Hehehehe just kidding. http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/index.php I found that forum quite helpful.
    Got mine direct from canon (via ebay) for 45 as a B grade, there's a small scratch on the lid otherwise its fine. This printer is defiantly better than my old Epson R220 in both print quality and functions plus its duplex and has 2 loading trays which is really handy.

    As for the ink I wont be doing any serious printing just yet, just some family snaps and of my baby boy when he arrives in May but I just want to be sure that the CIS kit I have won't ruin the print head but printing a page every few days should avoid this right?

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    Re: Manufacturers ink Vs 3rd Party ink

    the nifty stuff forum is probably a good place to ask. I'd guess it depends on your ink though, technically dye ink with good additive will never block under most circumstances. When I looked into buying aftermarket ink I found a few people who said they never had blockage with the better branded aftermarket stuff even after leaving idle for quite a while. The problem is more running dry since will burn print head out and will cost more than new printer I suspect.

    From what I read cis doesn't do to well with canons, especially ip3*** ip4*** and similar. Seems to be a sometimes it's great sometimes it's not situation with them. I have no experience with cis though, but across several trustworthy looking printer forums people complain canon doesn't fare as well with cis as hp/lex and especially epson. I notice the same groups who complain about canon cis and rate epson cis as more reliable are actually the canon printer users and rate canon higher in print quality and build etc.

    Do you know what ink is in the cis? Any info on whether it's a branded aftermarket ink or just cheap generic stuff? Congrats on the baby btw

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    Re: Manufacturers ink Vs 3rd Party ink

    Just read that ink permanence link, thanks for that some really good stuff in there. I knew the paper affected it but not specifics or details or how it affected it etc. Helpful since I had nothing to go on paper quality wise before other than price comparissons and you don't always get better quality for paying more.

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    Re: Manufacturers ink Vs 3rd Party ink

    Matthew - Check out Nazar Lyson Fotonic inks. I've used Lyson inks for about 3 years on a CIS for my Canon S9000 with generally good results. They don't clog, give good colour and are rated for ca. 100 years. However, the main problem I have had is getting suitable icc profiles to match printer with inks with paper.

    Cheers

    David

  15. #15

    Re: Manufacturers ink Vs 3rd Party ink

    Ok I have tried to find out what ink is in this CIS but its impossible but i have gone ahead and installed it so far so good, the prints are identical to the canon ink for now at least.
    I have read all your comments and will check out Nazar Lyson Fotonic inks which brings me to my next question.

    When this system runs out would it be safe to use a different ink to refill?

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    Re: Manufacturers ink Vs 3rd Party ink

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    When this system runs out would it be safe to use a different ink to refill?
    From a colour management perspective it's generally a good idea to get your ink set standardised, and then have a profile (or profiles) created for what ever paper(s) you're planning on using.

    If you change individual inks for those from different manufactures (so you have a mixed set installed) you might be OK or you might have a colour management nightmare; just tell me one thing ...

    ... "Do you feel lucky today"? (Well do you?)

  17. #17

    Re: Manufacturers ink Vs 3rd Party ink

    Quote Originally Posted by Colin Southern View Post
    From a colour management perspective it's generally a good idea to get your ink set standardised, and then have a profile (or profiles) created for what ever paper(s) you're planning on using.

    If you change individual inks for those from different manufactures (so you have a mixed set installed) you might be OK or you might have a colour management nightmare; just tell me one thing ...

    ... "Do you feel lucky today"? (Well do you?)
    I feel lucky everyday but today, I wont take the risk

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    Re: Manufacturers ink Vs 3rd Party ink

    Be aware though that after the initial change-over when the cart feed sponge still contains some of the previous ink (you cannot let the ink supply dry up because will burn printheads out but you know this I'm sure) until it becomes saturated with the new ink there is no chance of profiling it. Perhaps the best way is just print equal cmy bloacks for a few sheets on high ink setting as washing out the sponges with cleaning solution seems ott (although I've read people do this more on pigment inks to stop blockages, maybe others can confirm). To do this under your drivers settings (should be same as mine) can just turn ink dry time up so more goes on and turn up colour intensity temporarily too (col/intensity = manual).

    On a similar note to override the driver settings and colour profile manage yourself under the first page of printer settings turn "colour intensity" to manual and when click "set" button there are 2 tabs "col adjust" and "matching", go to matching and pick colour correction = ICM. Now when you set the profiles (eg. under photoshop ps manages colours) the printer wont interfer.

    I looked into a few inks recently and checked lyson as recommended by dave but was advised to try inktek and hobbicolors first as lyson is pigment ink(as far as I've found) and seems more the choice for epsons. Hobbicolor UW8 is pretty much identical to canon ink and is dye (apart from pigment black which I think is a mix) and is also rated at just under 100years like canon, inktek about half that under independent tests. However be aware that that lifetime thing is misleading, reading smallprint it means under archive conditions and not on your wall, and on archival paper. The link from colin is good as far as dye vs pig and paper choice goes, dye obviously won't last as long as pigment although it has better colour accuracy and I've read some pigment inks don't work well on swellable papers but they are much more fade resistant on micro paper than dye either way. There are a lot of tests and they are not all standardised and the accuracy of "chosen reported figures" is sometimes sketchy, I personally went for the independent but reliable looking tests I've seen for the kind of papers and storage conditions I use.

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