Cameras with electronic viewfinder

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Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver

I think mirrorless cameras, particularly the higher end ones have finally come of age.

I had a chance to use someone elses Sony Nex-7 a couple of weeks ago, and was quite impressed with the viewfinder performance. Similarly, I had a chance to use Nikon 1 V1 at the end of last year and was quite disappointed.

I am going to have another hard look at the MFTs from Panasonic later on this year; I already have a couple of MFT lenses for my Panasonic video camera, so will have another look at their higher end stuff this summer. I might be doing a few weeks of backpacking in Europe with my youngest daughter and don't want to haul all my large gear with me.

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I would encourage you to look through an EM-5 manual quickly Manfred. They are a rather good buy at the moment and you wont have problems using your Pansonic lenses on it. Your used to using and controlling a camera and I suspect you will appreciate the programmable buttons and extensive menu that is available once made available. I set mine up for P mode setting selection on the rear thumb wheel, exposure compensation on the front, iso selection on the movie button - I use the main switch if I want that. Currently I have one of the function buttons to activate the "focus peaking" E-M5 hack that has always been there and the other for magnified view.. The menu is easy to use for things your most likely to want to do - continuous shooting and things like that are a couple of clicks. Taking shots with "touch screen focus and shoot" at waste level is interesting.

The advantage of the Olympus lenses is size as the IS is in the body. I believe there is an option to automatically switch in body off when an IS lens is fitted but that may have been one of the Pen's. I swapped out my Panasonics a while ago. I reckon while it may looks awful the Oly 40-150mm is better than the Panasonics to 200mm at 150 so really glad a buyer on ebay didn't pay for it.

Some people have saved funds by buying Pen twin lens kits. keeping the lenses and selling the camera. I most certainly wouldn't knock the 14-42 or the 40-150mm kit lenses. The 9-18mm has plenty of even distortion at 9 as would be expected. So far the 70-300mm is fine. I have never heard a bad word about any of the primes.

As to distortion at 9mm I can reluctantly post a shot :) part way through some repair work and a tidy up that is still on going. Neither have been corrected much other than for distortion - florescent lighting above the lathe. :eek: My play area. New correction software. I am getting the hang of both tilt and barrel correction from the 16mm on the Nikon.

http://i61.tinypic.com/118my42.jpg

and a 3/4 reduced sized crop

http://i59.tinypic.com/ngabzo.jpg

Nothing sinister about the crop, it was a little to big to post.

:rolleyes: I've just bought some more storage for small tools that aren't used too often. That will help a lot but sorting them out will take time.

:eek: Robin wont like the shots. Incomplete correction and poor colour balance which actually isn't too bad as it's rather mixed lighting.

John
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Thanks John; I was planning to look at the Olympus gear as well.

There are some underlying advantages to me with the Panny gear, so unless there Olympus is leaps and bound better, I am unlikely to go there.

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Originally Posted by Panama Hat & Camera

John,
Thank you for your extensive explanation. After reading it, I realized that I have to know more about the MFT system before deciding if I buy an Entry Level DSLR or a MFT camera.
For me a viewfinder is essential. In the past, I photographed with a SLR camera (Olympus OM-2) and my tendency is buying an Entry Level DSLR.
All the best.
Antonio.

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Antonio, I cannot speak for Nikon nor any other brand but, I am very familiar with the Canon line of DSLR cameras.

IMO, a mid range Canon DSLR (xxD or 7D) has far-far better controls than the entry level Canon DSLR cameras (xxxD or xxxxD)...

This is due to the dual dial system incorporated in the mid-range cameras. You need to use the menu far less than on the entry level cameras. As an example, it is easy when shooting manual exposure to change the shutter speed and f/stop by the use of the two independent dials without taking the eye from the viewfinder.

Additionally, there is usually less shutter lag (time between pressing the shutter button and acquiring the image) in a mid-range Canon DSLR camera than in an entry level.

Another factor (for me) is the size of an entry level DSLR (usually smaller) compared with a mid-range DSLT (usually a bit larger). However, this can be a two edged sword if the photographer's hands are small.

If money is a factor, I would prefer to shoot my still photography with a mid-range Canon camera one or two models older rather than to use the latest entry level Canon DSLR. When we speak of video, that muddies the water a bit but, I don't shoot video with my DSLR camera, I use a dedicated video camera.

I don't have any connections with Olympus and probably approached M 4/3 in a different way to others. I bought a used E-PL1 mostly out of curiosity mainly based on the size and feeling a crop factor of 2 wasn't a bad idea. It came with a note from the previous owner - hope you grow to love it like I did. I wondered what an earth I had bought for a while but eventually got into the menu's and sorted some aspects out. Then I did like it. Many people do. They are a little addictive. I liked it so much that I forked out what I feel is an excessive amount for an E-P3 just for an easy carry around camera more capable of being easily set to do what I wanted to do. Still a bit limited though. What came as a surprise was much much better low light focusing and low light viewfinder behaviour. It will work in our rather dim living room and has no AF assist light. Basically better all round apart from optics. My problem really was that I was looking for dslr type control and the E-P3 made me realise that in an awful lot of respects I don't need a dslr. So bought the E-M5 and now have sufficient control without too much clutter.

Before the EM-5 I spent a lot of time looking at Panasonic and Sony. Sony have actually stated that they have no interest in people like me on the Nex range. Panasonic didn't measure up. Unlike Olympus they are not long term camera manufacturers. :) Olympus know what to put in and unfortunately what to leave out too. I was tempted by the Panasonic magnified view in the whole view for a while but I know 5x isn't really enough and they have always fallen down on control. Of late I have no idea what they offer but while some complain about Olympus's rather long menu's I think they are great and I suspect Panasonic will remain more Sony like. Olympus initially did it so that more advanced users could get more out of what were basically point and shoot cameras. They all come like that with the extended menu disabled - until the menu is used to enable them. Now many dslr's are being criticised for not offering the same thing.

:) Seems only KR and me make a lot of use of P mode. Probably as it mentions auto - the only auto aspect is an initial aperture and speed selection that matches the expose needed. Then there are a whole range of apertures and speeds that also keep the exposure correct. It's much quicker than full manual and offers just as much - if exposure compensation is easy to set.

:D I would say that the only real problem with the E-M5 is the existence of the E-M1. I've resisted so far. I suspect that will have a magnified view in the whole view. Maybe better focus peaking too. The 2.4mp viewfinder might be useful for small but still big web shots without focusing aids too.

I will add that I am not surprised that Sony are after Oly's jpg engine, stabilisation and optics expertise. People obviously forget that they are well known for producing excellent glass - at a price - but that is always the catch. I suspect Olympus may now have access to decent full frame sensors now ................ If I remember correctly they initially went for Fovian. Bad move as at one time they were rather strong in the film era. They came late to that as well.

:D All in MHO by the way. I feel people need to make their own minds up about most things. One factual aspect though is that these cameras can be far more pleasant to use than a dslr if they have the correct facilities. My advice is stay away unless you want to get tempted. Even a Pen will do that so it's fortunate that the viewfinder is expensive. Nikon V1 - who would buy a camera like that and then spend 100 quid on a flash gun. Sad. The camera is a nice idea. The E-M5 flash comes with it and uses the camera battery. Just annoying that it doesn't pop up.

John
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Manfred, is it the 4k on the GH4 that caught your eye? :) I was surprised. I honestly thought we wouldn't be seeing 4k for a few more years... guess I was right about Moore's Law... [grin].

Just came across this. Again I'm not pushing Fuji rather than it demonstrates how some of the fears over EVF are fast disappearing.

http://aboutphotography-tomgrill.blo...-on-review.htm

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Originally Posted by inkista

Manfred, is it the 4k on the GH4 that caught your eye? :) I was surprised. I honestly thought we wouldn't be seeing 4k for a few more years... guess I was right about Moore's Law... [grin].

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Personally, I think the 4K is not ready for prime time just yet.

The main reason for the MFT revisit is that I am looking at spending a couple of weeks backpacking through Europe with my youngest daughter this summer; although it might end up as a road trip or even something totally different. If we backpack and get around by train / public transport, I don't want the weight or space issues related to hauling around my D800 and a couple of lenses.

I was quite impressed with the Sony EVF, understanding it is OLED technology on their top of the line NEX unit. I'm going to have a good hard look at the higher end Panasonic and Olympus bodies (to go with my Lumix 14-140mm and 100 - 300mm lenses).

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Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver

The main reason for the MFT revisit is that I am looking at spending a couple of weeks backpacking through Europe with my youngest daughter this summer; although it might end up as a road trip or even something totally different. If we backpack and get around by train / public transport, I don't want the weight or space issues related to hauling around my D800 and a couple of lenses.

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When I hit up Ireland last year, I only brought my OM-D E-M5 along with the Panasonic 20mm f/1.7 and Olympus 45mm f/1.8. I wish I had a wider lens on a couple of occasions, but the ability to put the camera, and both lenses into one coat pocket made it worthwhile. It was so easy to carry around and it weighs next to nothing.

I ended up selling my Olympus only because I was getting ready to spend more money on the system and it was taking away cash flow from my D700 and arsenal of lenses. Now that it's gone, I'm really considering picking up the OM-D E-M1 and selling my Nikon gear. I'll miss it, but portability and size is starting to become a bigger priority now that I have kids.

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Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver

...The main reason for the MFT revisit is that I am looking at spending a couple of weeks backpacking through Europe with my youngest daughter this summer; although it might end up as a road trip or even something totally different. If we backpack and get around by train / public transport, I don't want the weight or space issues related to hauling around my D800 and a couple of lenses...

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Similarly, my wife and I will be in Europe for a couple of weeks this spring. Half of the time will be on a cycling tour. All I plan on taking is a Nikon V1 kit and the tiny (less than 1 kg) Sirui tripod. The V1 system has some interesting features and with plenty of light produces IQ comparable to a D200 by my estimation. Plenty good for vacation photos.

Not being a SOOC type I don't get all of the concerns about EVF resolution, color rendition, etc. As long as I can use it to compose the shot I'm good. My only issue is the momentary freeze frame which only matters for action type shooting. I'm interested in seeing the Sony a6000 when it comes out. It has hybrid AF purportedly faster than anything to-date. Hopefully will be able to turn off the annoying preview feature. Then if they'll produce some decent glass...

One to look at is the new Fuji XT-1.

I finally got my hands on one this weekend at a photography show. I know some of the Fuji reps which helped and I have to say it was even better than I had read about and was hoping for. Lovely build - small yet rock solid. The viewfinder was fantastic - couldn't see any lag, it was sharp and the split-imgae view when in MF mode was very well thought out. Love the dials which feel very positive and there is a great choice of lenses.

Need to see what the D300s and K30 kit is worth but I thing its time to make the change from a DSLR to a Mirrorless system - for me at least.

Thanks Chris and Dan.

I don't see ditching my D800 any time soon (and I will continue to drag it around the world). I like the shallow DoF I get with the fast glass; which in my view is the major downside of APS-C and MFT. Smaller sensor and slower glass... Not to mention the tiny viewfinders; the other main reason I went full frame.

I did get a chance to use the V1 over Christmas and thoroughly disliked it. I understand that that entire line is not doing particularly well for Nikon, especially in Europe and North America. Frankly I can't say I'm all that surprised. Both Canon and Nikon seem to be so concerned about caniballizing their higher margin gear, that they have stopped being innovative and are being thoroughly outpaced by others, especially Sony, Olympus and Fuji in that regard.

I started biking last spring (recommendation by my orthopedic surgeon; something that is both good exercise and and something I can do that will not increase the risk of damaging my foot). I used to throw the D90 with a couple of kit lenses into the saddlebag on our rides, but now that my daughter has "borrowed" it on a rather permanent basis, a replacement is not going to hurt.

If I didn't have two decent MFT lenses, I would seriously consider going with the Sony or Fuji gear, but I do, so that really restricts me to either Panasonic or Olympus. 'm not particularly impressed with Olympus's retro style direction with the OM-D E-1 or the Pen E-P5 (I hated the original Pen film cameras). The last time I looked, I wasn't thrilled with the Panasonic offerings either, but the GH4 wil hit the street before I am planning to buy, so I'll have a look at it after it has been released.

I might want to pick up something wider than the 14-140mm lens, as the FF equivilent of 28mm is really not particuarly wide, but the 7-14mm is a bit out of my price range right now, so I'll see what the cash flow looks like in July...

I have nosed at the Nikon V1 Dan. Doubt if I would have but having gone small I couldn't help having a look. It's an interesting idea. According to dpreview they have produced some high resolution glass for it. Then I saw the price of the flash to go with it. Camera a couple of hundred quid and flash over a hundred. Doesn't make much sense from a sales point of view to me. The other point dpreview made is that although normal Nikon lenses can be used on it with the adapter some unspecified number wont have sufficient resolution to use the pixels.

The E-M1 already has the hybrid AF and so far one really hight quality piece of glass to go with it. :eek: It currently costs more or less the same as the camera body. More HQ glass is available from their 4/3 lenses range via the adapter. It seems the more recent probably have to be new lenses work well with it. Apart from that option it has to be Olympus m 4/3 or Panasonic glass which by most accounts is mostly decent stuff. The only one I don't rate at all that I have owned is the Panasonic 4?-200mm and I pixel peep.

John
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Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver

Personally, I think the 4K is not ready for prime time just yet. ...

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Yeah. Very early days yet.

Probably not really worth considering, but I think it's clear if you wanna ultrawide, then you've got a choice between the Panasonic 7-14 and the Oly 9-18. Have a feeling the Samyang 7.5 fisheye is out of the running, unless you wanted it for video purposes. I snagged a 9-18 from the US Oly refurb site last week for around US$400--it's winging its way to me as I type--we'll see if I end up regretting not saving the big bucks for the 7-14, which is clearly the much funner lens--particularly if you shoot a Panasonic body and don't have to worry about that purple fringe deal that the Oly bodies have with it [weaker UV filtering, iirc]. :)

John--I love my 45-200 OIS, actually. For the cost, it pretty much made my jaw drop. I was expecting something on a par with my old Canon 75-300 III, and got something much much nicer. A lot of the complaints I see about the 45-200 are from folks who aren't particularly experienced with supertelephoto shooting or have bodies without EVFs. And while the 100-300 is a better lens, (and the Oly 300/4 will probably whomp with style), the 100-300 does cost twice as much. I've never had an issue with sharpness on the 45-200, but I'm not a pixel peeper and I regularly shoot with a Canon 400mm unstabilized lens, so my long lens technique's pretty decent. Expecting tack-sharp 100% crop performance wide open at the long end of a supertele from a $250 consumer-grade lens isn't particularly realistic.

Bud,
I think your suggestion very good. I will continue studying the various types of cameras (DSLR, DSLT and MFT) to decide what I will buy for my photographic gear.
How many points has the EVF of the Sony A77 and what is its size?
All the best,
Antonio.

Richard,
Thank you for your advice.
The Canon 70D is also in my thoughts, but I would prefer that it was a little smaller.
All the best,
Antonio.

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Originally Posted by Panama Hat & Camera

Bud,
I think your suggestion very good. I will continue studying the various types of cameras (DSLR, DSLT and MFT) to decide what I will buy for my photographic gear.
How many points has the EVF of the Sony A77 and what is its size?
All the best,
Antonio.

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Sensor 24MP
Autofocus points 19
Viewfinder Type Electronic
Viewfinder Coverage 100%
Viewfinder Magnification Approx. 1.09x
Diopter Adjustment - 4 to +3 m
Display Screen 3" Rear Screen Tilting LCD (921,600)
Screen Coverage 100%
Size:
Dimensions (WxHxD) 5.6 x 4.1 x 3.2" / 14.2 x 10.4 x 8.0 cm
Weight 1.44 lb / 653 g Camera body only

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Originally Posted by inkista

Yeah. Very early days yet.

Probably not really worth considering, but I think it's clear if you wanna ultrawide, then you've got a choice between the Panasonic 7-14 and the Oly 9-18. Have a feeling the Samyang 7.5 fisheye is out of the running, unless you wanted it for video purposes. I snagged a 9-18 from the US Oly refurb site last week for around US$400--it's winging its way to me as I type--we'll see if I end up regretting not saving the big bucks for the 7-14, which is clearly the much funner lens--particularly if you shoot a Panasonic body and don't have to worry about that purple fringe deal that the Oly bodies have with it [weaker UV filtering, iirc]. :)

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Yes; the Panny 7-14 looks very interesting; I shoot the Nikkor f/2.8 14-24mm on my D800, the Tokina f/2.8 11-16mm for the D90 and the f/2.8 19mm Elmarit-R for the Leica R3 (in the days the widest rectinlinear wide angle that Leica made); so you can see I have always loved shooting the ultrawides. If I go the Panny route, I see that lens ending up in my camera bag as well.

I have always had mixed feelings about Oly; as an old instrument company like Leica, Zeiss and Nikon, their optical heritage is outstanding, but their halo has slipped over the past few years (too much money going to questionable financial dealings and not enough into R&D). I remember shooting a friends brand new OM-2 back in my university days, and not really liking as I found it too small for my liking (and I don't have particularly large hands), and I absolutely hated the original Pen models.

Another option for fish eye on micro 4/3 is a C mount type :) circular image too.

I hadn't notice that Samyang did a pure m 4/3 fish eye.

I wondered about the panasonic but was fairly impressed by this

http://www.photozone.de/olympus--fou...18_456?start=1

Olympus so far don't seem to leave so much CA to worry about from raw unlike Panasonic. Same with vignetting. I do know that on Pen's they were fixing Panasonic lenses as well. That may mean plugging the camera with lens fitted into the web. I assume the same is true of the EM's They seem to be paranoid about software hacks so this is how all updates are done. Some people have made up spoof Olympus servers but no idea how that is going.

The image I posted is a tough test for this sort of lens. The room is only about 10ft deep and angles all over the place. This is the uncorrected jpg. I will have had the vertical and horizontal levels on so angles will be tilt and little role. If I try hand held panoramas I will try using the grid display to align the shots.

http://i62.tinypic.com/j7t6jp.jpg

From memory the Panasonic only gives another 10 degrees over the 100 on the diagonal. :) not much anyway.

As the UK weather is crap still I'll dig the raw out and see what happens with that. I can shoot a few shots and get Hugin to generate correction factors. I assume the same can be done with windows software.

John
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And this is raw. Quick conversion and reduction. about 1.5 stop push and mild S curve. I left some strip light in as I like to see how much a lens can flare.

http://i61.tinypic.com/14biy6f.jpg

Makes me think I am going to switch keep warm colours off as this is straight camera white balance.

John
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a number of people seemed to have dumped the E-M5 in the UK recently so there are some good secondhand buys around at the mo.

Kathy congrat on the 9-18. seems a good value lens

I'm loving the 7-14 it's great fun, combine it with the new 14-140 and the 20mm and you have a really lightweight travel kit (Kathy can even add her beloved 45 f1.8 and not notice any difference)

of course next year you have that Olympus 7-14 f2.8 coming out.....