Cameras with electronic viewfinder

I have 'power zoom' with my original bridge camera .... my wonderful and trusty Nikon 5700 still working well within its limitations .... but very thankful that since I added Panasonic to my stable I have had manual zoom ... not quite true as it is fire-by-wire whatever that means with the drawbacks, very minor most of the time, of that system. I believe the drawbacks relate to manual focus which I never use and the practice of see-sawing across the focus point and inevitable over run one way or the other from the refresh rate ... so some wrote a few years back :)

I believe another cause of slight off-focus could stem from the use of stepping motors rather than the analog of the human hand coupled with human reaction time on the zoom/focus button ....just an empiracle idea with no science behind it :)

I did read about a Danish experiment which had MFT CD being faster than a DSLR PD system and wish I had read up about it and bookmarked it .... can anybody provide a link?

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Originally Posted by thequacksoflife

a number of people seemed to have dumped the E-M5 in the UK recently so there are some good secondhand buys around at the mo.

Kathy congrat on the 9-18. seems a good value lens

I'm loving the 7-14 it's great fun, combine it with the new 14-140 and the 20mm and you have a really lightweight travel kit (Kathy can even add her beloved 45 f1.8 and not notice any difference)

of course next year you have that Olympus 7-14 f2.8 coming out.....

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Selling and probably buying the E-M1. The new E-M5's are running rather cheaply too as they are clearing them out. The reason a lot of people sell is to move on to the newer model while the current camera has value.

Actually m 4/3 sales are well down probably mostly down to Panasonic buyers as they formed the bulk.

When buying lenses - especially wide angle - it's always best to look at the coverage angle and ask is it worth it.

John
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Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver

Yes; the Panny 7-14 looks very interesting; I shoot the Nikkor f/2.8 14-24mm on my D800, the Tokina f/2.8 11-16mm for the D90 and the f/2.8 19mm Elmarit-R for the Leica R3 (in the days the widest rectinlinear wide angle that Leica made); so you can see I have always loved shooting the ultrawides. If I go the Panny route, I see that lens ending up in my camera bag as well.

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Yeah, if you shoot the 14-24, a 7-14 is probably what you're gonna want. But whether it's the Panny f/4 version, or the upcoming Oly f/2.8 version, well...

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Originally Posted by ajohnw

I hadn't notice that Samyang did a pure m 4/3 fish eye. ...

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My other fave lens (vs. the Oly 45/1.8). I use the Rokinon version with wild abandon. Very good corner performance--no need to make excuses that "it's a fisheye", and it's very compact--on a par with the 20/1.7. My suspicions are that the Samyang NEX and Fuji X 8mm/2.8 fisheyes are based on the mft design.

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Originally Posted by thequacksoflife

Kathy congrat on the 9-18. seems a good value lens

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That's what I'm hoping! The cost, the ability to use filters, and the walkaround length on the long end were the main reasons I went for it, especially as my 14-42 kit is used about 95% of the time at 14. But I will say that just looking over sample images, the 7 of the 7-14 tends to really wow me more often than the 9 on the 9-18. Still, I have a fisheye. :)

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... of course next year you have that Olympus 7-14 f2.8 coming out.....

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Interesting to see what the pricetag will be. But as a birder, I have to say that the 300/4 excites me just a smidge more. MFT really hasn't got any great supertele offerings at the moment.

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Originally Posted by inkista

Interesting to see what the pricetag will be. But as a birder, I have to say that the 300/4 excites me just a smidge more. MFT really hasn't got any great supertele offerings at the moment.

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as a birder it interests me as well! I wonder about the size tho.

you have a fisheye? REALLY? ;)

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Originally Posted by thequacksoflife

as a birder it interests me as well! I wonder about the size tho.

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Yeah. I know. The initial image makes it look super-huge for an mft lens. Need to see it on a camera to get scale.

And then there's the rumored newer smaller Panasonic 35-100/2.8 for the GM1...

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... you have a fisheye? REALLY? ;)

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Oh? Have I mentioned this once or twice? :) Snicker. It helps to alleviate the boredom between grebe mating dances.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5542/1...e6a7ebbd_z.jpg
G3+Rokinon 7.5.

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Originally Posted by thequacksoflife

as a birder it interests me as well! I wonder about the size tho.

you have a fisheye? REALLY? ;)

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The 1st prime I bought was the 45mm F1.8. It's a focal length I like using. My 14-42 spends most time at 42.

This is the panasonic 100-300mm at 50m according to the exif on an E-M5 without the digital zoom on which would push it to 600mm. That should be fine for web etc and this is more or less 100% res crop.

http://i58.tinypic.com/6y1q53.jpg

Me processing could have been better but it did get a few votes.

John
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Kathy - yep the Grebes are dancing hope to see some when I'm in London on Saturday. There are a few breeding pairs in Hyde Park amazing to see in the centre of the city. There is a spot where people have been feeding birds for year and I've had Blue Tits and Great Tits sit on my hand, really amazing feeling. they seem to like cheese :) There are two Ring Necked Parakeets that come to hand as well.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-PwIL9hhExI...1010285+ex.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-tXuMh0iJII...1010286+ex.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-alLjyL4dd4...Image00030.jpg


John - got the 100-300 for what it is it is a nice little lens.

curiously the 45(90)mm is a focal length I tend not to use a lot. i tend to be in the 12-25 (24-50) or 100+ range.....

I changed to the Olympus 75-300mm. Even smaller. Weather has been crap as you know but shortly I should be able to find that bird again and do a comparison.

I've also used a 500mm mirror lens on a Pen. Not tried it on the E-M5 which should make life easier as IS is there for focusing but focus peaking would be a lot better if it works accurately - not much depth of field.

John
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Originally Posted by ajohnw

I changed to the Olympus 75-300mm. Even smaller. Weather has been crap as you know but shortly I should be able to find that bird again and do a comparison.

I've also used a 500mm mirror lens on a Pen. Not tried it on the E-M5 which should make life easier as IS is there for focusing but focus peaking would be a lot better if it works accurately - not much depth of field.

John
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well as a Panny user the 100-300 has stabilisation. and the Oly is f6.7??

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Originally Posted by thequacksoflife

well as a Panny user the 100-300 has stabilisation. and the Oly is f6.7??

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:) Yes F4.8 to F6.7. I have trouble getting excited by a bit over a 1/3 of a stop. Reviews do though which if ISO/speed change are taken into account is a bit daft.

In this case, birds, there is another point as well. Lots of them need full resolution crops and in that situation there is little depth of field available.

To me where something say a stop faster would be of interest is when there is a converter available.

:D If some one buys m 4/3 and needs image stabilisation in the lens they bought the wrong camera. The only problem really is pro splash proof glass. Like all makes it costs. I'm told the 12-40mm may get as low as £750 on it's own. The wide angle one mentioned will probably be that and some like all such lenses are. The interesting things looking at things this way is that Panasonic are muddying the m 4/3 water. Chalk and cheese etc. In my view that already applies to the cameras.

John
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Originally Posted by ajohnw

:) Yes F4.8 to F6.7. I have trouble getting excited by a bit over a 1/3 of a stop. Reviews do though which if ISO/speed change are taken into account is a bit daft.

In this case, birds, there is another point as well. Lots of them need full resolution crops and in that situation there is little depth of field available.

To me where something say a stop faster would be of interest is when there is a converter available.

:D If some one buys m 4/3 and needs image stabilisation in the lens they bought the wrong camera. The only problem really is pro splash proof glass. Like all makes it costs. I'm told the 12-40mm may get as low as £750 on it's own. The wide angle one mentioned will probably be that and some like all such lenses are. The interesting things looking at things this way is that Panasonic are muddying the m 4/3 water. Chalk and cheese etc. In my view that already applies to the cameras.

John
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i'll take anything I can get f-stop wise....

don't understand the bit about panasonic muddying the water.

I do agree that inbody stabilisation is preferable. And Panny must agree as they are moving that way with the GX7 away to go though

I wanted to buy the e-m5 but i absolutely hated it in the hand(personal thing I agree). FOR ME I'd need the half grip and if I use that I can't change batteries without removing the grip!! Curiously Olympus must agree as on the e-m10 you can change batteries without removing the grip ;)

the thing I love about m4/3 is I can mix and match bodies and lenses. I get a bit frustrated about the fanboys on either side.

The 300f4 may drive me down the e-m1 route at some stage.

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Originally Posted by thequacksoflife

i'll take anything I can get f-stop wise....

don't understand the bit about panasonic muddying the water.

I do agree that inbody stabilisation is preferable. And Panny must agree as they are moving that way with the GX7 away to go though

I wanted to buy the e-m5 but i absolutely hated it in the hand(personal thing I agree). FOR ME I'd need the half grip and if I use that I can't change batteries without removing the grip!! Curiously Olympus must agree as on the e-m10 you can change batteries without removing the grip ;)

the thing I love about m4/3 is I can mix and match bodies and lenses. I get a bit frustrated about the fanboys on either side.

The 300f4 may drive me down the e-m1 route at some stage.

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I put the smilies in as I didn't want to go fanboy. it seems to me that once past the Pen's Olympus have tried for all of the sort of facilities that some one would want from a dslr and easy access to them. Even on Pen's they give people well past point and shoot facilities if they want to use them. Trouble is that they wont put the lot in all of them immediately - future models. I haven't looked at Panasonic for a long time but didn't get the same impression. Where is weather sealing as one for instance. Another thing that swung it for me was a chat with some one from Jessop's just before I bought the E-M5. He used Panasonic himself and the Oly rep kept showing him things taken with an E-M5. His words were all sharper. This is about the time Pen's with the earlier Panasonic sensor were being sold off at very low prices and a number of Pansonic lenses were being criticised. I've never heard of anyone seriously knocking the Olympus lenses other than the 12-50mm with power zoom. They make good use of the pixels that are there. I wonder about the 12-50mm. I suspect it sometimes has fuzz problems. Never had the slightest hickup with the 14-42. This is what I meant about chalk and cheese etc - a real dslr competitor or not. I get the impression a lot don't take m 4/3 seriously and feels Olympus in particular aught to be.

I spend a lot of time looking at the manual before I buy a camera. I've used several so know what I will want to change as I us them. :) The E-PL1 really reminded me about that. It had 1100 shots on it when I bought it and I have added several more hundred to that. The E-P3 was a lot better on the control front and hasn't been used much due to the E-M5.

I can understand people having mixed feeling about the E-M5 body. I shot a lot of manual film so it feels normal if rather small to me. They probably decided to add the thumb grip late as it gets in the way of using the Fn1 button but I cope and have big hands. The E-M1 clears that up and according to blurb has a button for everything which isn't the way I would take the camera but that's me.

:eek: Battery grips - I'm an engineer and have a rather good idea what they should cost to make/buy. When I see the price I just go WHAT. I have a spare battery.

;) Just hope the 75-300mm turns out to be as good as the others. It bugs me that the earlier 100-300mm cost 800 quid. Last year was a photographic low for me for a number of reason so little use but it looks encouraging.

John
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Originally Posted by ajohnw

I put the smilies in as I didn't want to go fanboy.

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I appreciated that :) <-- ;)

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Originally Posted by ajohnw

Where is weather sealing as one for instance.

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Gh3 is the only one I know of.

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Originally Posted by ajohnw

just before I bought the E-M5. He used Panasonic himself and the Oly rep kept showing him things taken with an E-M5. His words were all sharper.

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beware reps I say. There was nothing wrong with the old 12mp sensor well there was high iso!

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Originally Posted by ajohnw

and a number of Pansonic lenses were being criticised. I've never heard of anyone seriously knocking the Olympus lenses other than the 12-50mm with power zoom.

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the only two I know of that got criticised were the 14-42 mkI and the 14-42 PZ. Kathy will defend the MK1 !! and i'll defend the PZ. It got some initial poor reviews but Photozone liked it and I have a copy I have no issues with. I think it was an initial Firmware issue on maybe they fixed it (I got my copy much later). The original 14-42 Oly got criticised (I can dig the review out) for a similar reason. And curiously the 17 f1.8 has not been universally lavished (never used it so can't comment)

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Originally Posted by ajohnw

I get the impression a lot don't take m 4/3 seriously and feels Olympus in particular aught to be.

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TBH both make good cameras. The lens set for m4/3 is much better than anything Canikon have produced for APS-C. But I had to laugh when someone took the E-M1 apart and found it was using a Panasonic sensor! The camera I most like holding is the G5/G6 ANNOYINGLY Panny won't stick their best sensor in it.

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Originally Posted by ajohnw

I spend a lot of time looking at the manual before I buy a camera. I've used several so know what I will want to change as I us them. :) The E-PL1 really reminded me about that. It had 1100 shots on it when I bought it and I have added several more hundred to that. The E-P3 was a lot better on the control front and hasn't been used much due to the E-M5.

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I can understand that. The E-M5 takes lovely images though I suspect at base ISO there isn't much in it.

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Originally Posted by ajohnw

I can understand people having mixed feeling about the E-M5 body. I shot a lot of manual film so it feels normal if rather small to me. They probably decided to add the thumb grip late as it gets in the way of using the Fn1 button but I cope and have big hands. The E-M1 clears that up and according to blurb has a button for everything which isn't the way I would take the camera but that's me.

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I think the problem is that on a film camera there aren't all those buttons to press and the screen to get in the way. An Om4 is much nicer to hold than an EM5 for that reason. Curiously I still have a Panasonic GF1 and I find that I accidentally press buttons and change things much less!!

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Originally Posted by ajohnw

:eek: Battery grips - I'm an engineer and have a rather good idea what they should cost to make/buy. When I see the price I just go WHAT. I have a spare battery.

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It is a bit like the add on viewfinders. Panasonics LVF1 wouldn't fit the GX1 want a con! but all cameramakers try to shaft us with accesories. And don't get me on all of the different panasonic batteries!!

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Originally Posted by ajohnw

;) Just hope the 75-300mm turns out to be as good as the others. It bugs me that the earlier 100-300mm cost 800 quid. Last year was a photographic low for me for a number of reason so little use but it looks encouraging.

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Puzzled as I thought it was the 75-300 that was the one that was really pricey and then Oly saw sense. I paid £400 for my 100-300.


Hope this is a good one for you!

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Originally Posted by ajohnw

:eek: Battery grips - I'm an engineer and have a rather good idea what they should cost to make/buy. When I see the price I just go WHAT. I have a spare battery.

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I am an engineer as well John, and have done a lot of work in new product costing and production startup.

Unfortunately, there is generally the relationship between cost and price is tenuous at best, even when one includes the direct costs (design, tooling, production costs) and indirect costs (inventory / inventory turns, burden spending distribution, marketing and mechandising costs).

Bottom line is if people will pay the price, the manufacturer will gladly take the money.

I'm not so sure about the sensor aspect. I was told, maybe true, that a couple of companies switched to Sony including Olympus on the promise of on sensor phase contrast AF. There is also the Sony Olympus tie up, distribution, shared parts, oly optical design and jpg engine. What do they get back. I would guess sensors. I have seen web comments of late though that Oly wont come clean on who makes the sensor in the OM's. The web can be a very miss leading place. It wouldn't surprise me if there were custom Panasonic interface chips etc in both makes. One thing I have noticed of late is that the noise characteristic of the E-M5 isn't the same as the Pen's I have and very similar to a D7000.

One thing for sure they switched sensors rather rapidly. The price of a twin lens basic earlier pen kit was daft really when they were sold off.

:) I have more of a where is that dam button than hitting the wrong button problem. I did find the camera had vertical and horizontal levels playing with buttons though and couldn't switch them off at the time. Since the focus peaking which looks like it may work with an F8 500mm mirror lens on I'm about to use the myset thingies and change the ways i use the buttons if it will let me do what I want with them. It's a bit strange that they wont allow any option on all buttons - reserved for future models I suspect or supremely badly hacked software. Might be the latter. I set the E-PL1 up for full house everything in full auto as there were options to do that. Handy for 1600 ISO jpg's. A very nice feature for some situations. :confused: It remained like that and when I changed something else in another area those menu options disappeared.

John
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Originally Posted by ajohnw

I'm not so sure about the sensor aspect. I was told, maybe true, that a couple of companies switched to Sony including Olympus on the promise of on sensor phase contrast AF. There is also the Sony Olympus tie up, distribution, shared parts, oly optical design and jpg engine. What do they get back. I would guess sensors. I have seen web comments of late though that Oly wont come clean on who makes the sensor in the OM's. The web can be a very miss leading place. It wouldn't surprise me if there were custom Panasonic interface chips etc in both makes. One thing I have noticed of late is that the noise characteristic of the E-M5 isn't the same as the Pen's I have and very similar to a D7000.

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Apparently Chipworks took an EM1 apart.

The E-m5 does have a sony sensor. If you think that a 24 MP APS-C sensor is approx equiv to 16MP then it is likely that the currrent sony 24mp sensor is in the em5 scaled down to m43. so the characteristics are likely to be similar.

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Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver

I am an engineer as well John, and have done a lot of work in new product costing and production startup.

Unfortunately, there is generally the relationship between cost and price is tenuous at best, even when one includes the direct costs (design, tooling, production costs) and indirect costs (inventory / inventory turns, burden spending distribution, marketing and mechandising costs).

Bottom line is if people will pay the price, the manufacturer will gladly take the money.

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Yes I know Manfred. It all seems to go back to Sainsbury price profit graphs after a fashion. A man, now Lord and a UK supermarket with some interesting ideas. Create the impression that you sell superior products ( :) Panasonic in my experience on several so so products ) and companies can charge more. Then go on and increase prices and look at profits. Oddly maximum sales doesn't always tie in with max profit and the term busy fools comes about - make/sell less make more over all profit. That even has implications on where things are made. Labour costs aren't always as significant as people think. Then things go forget what it costs and charge what the market can stand and variations such as selling below cost and making the profit elsewhere. More recently mature market thinking. That includes engineering by numbers which often really means what can we get away with product functionality wise etc. :D If I buy a car I always sit in all of the seats to see what the passengers have to put up with. Even see if all doors clunk the same way and have similarly rigid panels with my knee. These aspects aren't as bad as they have been in the past but ...............

John
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