Invisible

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Originally Posted by Tronhard

I would dispute that. You live in Fiji, not a city like Vancouver. So have you had discourse on this subject from people who would have experienced this environment? Your assumption was made about these people without being in their social space... surely you see the flaw in that logic? So let's look at the thing at the photo and the academic context for what we are seeing...

If you look at the expressions of the people in this image they are not making eye contact with the seated individual, they are fixed ahead, especially the fellow who is approaching the seated individual, who is himself disengaged from looking at the people passing by. They do not look angry to me.

This has a lot to with how we associate with large populations and social dysfunction, especially in our modern society. People have a social "pool" of relationships maximized between 150-200 people, the size of a village before we developed industrial agriculture to a point of surplus to support skills specializations and hence larger-sized communities, and that is very ancient. In such societies we knew the people around us: we might love them, like them, dislike them or hate them, but we knew them well enough to recognize and have a social connection with them. Studies indicate that in large cities we do not increase that pool, yet we are surrounded by individuals and groups we cannot relate to. A parallel would be to be stranded in the Antarctic without a heat source - surrounded by water that we cannot access, it is the largest desert in the world.

We establish "villages" from people we may work with, travel regularly with or share interests with. The needs to establish valid relationships are expressed in devices such as matchmaking companies or dating apps. The result is that we isolate ourselves from those who surround us and with whom we cannot relate - we may have read the paper or a book in simpler times, now the desire to isolate ourselves from unwanted social or physical contact is one reason for the popularity of such devices as iPods, and cell phones that allow us to focus our attention on a device and not those around them. This is challenge for people making relationships in our times. If you have a mind to I would recommend reading Professor Dunbar's work on the Dunbar number and its impact on social interactions. There are also several other academic works on this, including ones specific to Canada.

The challenge for "unconventional populations", is exacerbated for those people who don't fit into our definition of "normal" and that makes them extremely hard for the general population to engage with, so the easiest solution of the public (based on a behavioural standard normal curve) is to "blank them", as I said, appearing to not sense them or their appeals for assistance. They often cannot make a connection themselves (as shown by the posture of the beggar). There is not normally anger - that would involve greater awareness and emotional investment that would be very stressful on a frequent basis: westerners visiting other societies where personal space is much less and where overt and persistent begging is common often express discomfort and stress at that. Essentially the mass population simply seek to be emotionally comfortable according to their environmental norm.

So I take you back to this photo... Do the passers by look angry? I cannot see that, so it far more likely that they are, in fact, doing what most people do - making this individual as invisible as possible.

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You can dispute what you want Trevor but don't you think it rather presumptuous of yourself to make assumptions about what I am familiar with?

You seem to be putting a lot of effort into making 'some point', whatever it is, when all I have simply said is "that you can not assume people (as in all) are UNCOMFORTABLE when walking past beggars.

Perhaps your last para sums things up when you ask me the question "Do the passers by look angry". If they looked angry would you make an assumption that you knew why they/or an individual was angry?

I have no desire to prolong the boredom of other members but if you like I shall deal with your efforts to justify yourself in a private message.
Your choice.

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Originally Posted by Tronhard

I have no desire to prolong the boredom of other members but if you like I shall deal with your efforts to justify yourself in a private message.
Your choice.

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No thank you to a PM Trevor, no amount of your writing is going to convince me that we can assume what people are thinking or feeling by their facial expressions or line of sight when they walk past a beggar, as in the photo by Sharon.

Whatever...

Graham,
You might look at it from another point of view. Not the sitting person, beggar/homeless or whatever, is the subject, but the walking people like you and me. The not looking people, comfortable or not.
I hope Sharon doesn't mind me showing another picture. The same subject and I think that's more important as the photographer. The picture could be made anywhere, well nearly anywhere.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4740/2...8e4262ae_o.jpg

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Statistics are wonderful things, there's even some around that rate Fiji top of a world country poll on happiness.

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Here is the report http://content1b.omroep.nl/urishield...lukrapport.pdf
It's 188 pages long and I didn't read it.

George

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Originally Posted by george013

Graham,
You might look at it from another point of view.

George

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George, my only "point of view" (disregarding the space containing the doors) is my firm belief that you can not assume that "it makes people uncomfortable" (as said by Sharon in post 4) when they pass such a subject on the street. It really is as simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Stagecoach

George, my only "point of view" (disregarding the space containing the doors) is my firm belief that you can not assume that "it makes people uncomfortable" (as said by Sharon in post 4) when they pass such a subject on the street. It really is as simple as that.

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She said more.

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The idea in the photo was that he of course was very noticeable but nobody looked at him.
Very common it makes people uncomfortable so really he is invisible.

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At this moment the guy is not the subject but the passers-by. Is also a "point of view".:rolleyes:

George

Holy crap such a spirited debate over a simple photograph that yea could have been taken anywhere. Can’t we say that about the majority of photographs now thrown out there? Very few are truly that special.
Could I have elaborated a bit better in regards to my invisible title? Of course. Sitting there on the sidewalk being passed by busy shoppers, I speculate he does feel invisible. And I suspect many people wish he/homelesness/marginalized were invisible.
In terms of facial expressions and my assumptions omg one of the key pieces of communication amongst human beings is....facial expression!! We draw conclusions about how a person is feeling all the time based upon this.
Statistics, well yeah graham I am a scientist so I do at times use statistics vs anecdotal evidence in my thought process. Doesn’t mean it’s perfect and numbers are certainly just that...and can be used and manipulated for sure. Happy to hear Fiji is a wonderful place to live.

Thank you George for posting. No problems from me I put the photo out there so if there is reaponse either positive or negative or none at all I’m good 😀

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Originally Posted by george013

Graham,
You might look at it from another point of view. Not the sitting person, beggar/homeless or whatever, is the subject, but the walking people like you and me. The not looking people, comfortable or not.
I hope Sharon doesn't mind me showing another picture. The same subject and I think that's more important as the photographer. The picture could be made anywhere, well nearly anywhere.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4740/2...8e4262ae_o.jpg


Here is the report http://content1b.omroep.nl/urishield...lukrapport.pdf
It's 188 pages long and I didn't read it.

George

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Originally Posted by george013

At this moment the guy is not the subject but the passers-by. Is also a "point of view".:rolleyes:

George

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Yes George, different people viewing the photo can have different views of what the subject is, the beggar or the pedestrians.

It can also be considered that the 'subject' is what it is attempting to portray "invisibility" of the beggar to others in which case it requires both the beggar and pedestrians as subjects.

To those interested I looked for an experiment conducted by my university where students became beggars for a period and studied the reactions of those passing by. I could not find that document but here is one of a very similar nature by an individual who quantified the nature of the reactions he experienced.
http://joelrmontgomery.com/field-lessons/seeing-life-through-a-beggars-eyes/

The importance of body language as opposed to what we say or how we say it is well established. Approximately 80% of our input is what comes through our eyes (so good to be a photographer! :)), it tends to override both language and tone where it is present. We automatically start to use our sense of others' body language from soon after birth. It's importance is why the visual arts are so engaging and its interpretation is seen in any analysis of such art, be it painting, sculpture, or the theatrical arts. That is why we can approach an image and get a sense of the social interaction, especially if we are looking at a familiar environment.

The sensitivity to posture and eye movement is much more ancient than us. Any pack hunting predators use similar changes of position to coordinate their attacks on prey. (I have yet to see a pack of lions sitting down with a white board pre-planning an attack strategy, but it would a great cartoon! :rolleyes:). As hunter-gatherers we have had to use similar alternatives to spoken language or major gestures to prevent spooking our prey, so we are naturally inclined to look for these subtitles of posture. In the few remaining hunter-gatherer societies left, such as the Pigmy people of West and Central Africa, one can still see exactly those subtle manifestations of body language in their hunting methods.

Thanks trev very interesting, but I’m someone interested in the human condition. There’s a saying going around, “I see a lot of humans but not so much humanity”.
I’ve read of similar experiments with people becoming homeless for a week or two. It can be eye opening, yet when one knows there is an out at the end of it all, it doesn’t give one the same sense of hopelessness and being desperate. Doesn’t mean it’s good or bad....I respect the intent.
😁

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Originally Posted by Tronhard

To those interested I looked for an experiment conducted by my university where students became beggars for a period and studied the reactions of those passing by. I could not find that document but here is one of a very similar nature by an individual who quantified the nature of the reactions he experienced.
http://joelrmontgomery.com/field-lessons/seeing-life-through-a-beggars-eyes/

The importance of body language as opposed to what we say or how we say it is well established. Approximately 80% of our input is what comes through our eyes (so good to be a photographer! :)), it tends to override both language and tone where it is present. We automatically start to use our sense of others' body language from soon after birth. It's importance is why the visual arts are so engaging and its interpretation is seen in any analysis of such art, be it painting, sculpture, or the theatrical arts. That is why we can approach an image and get a sense of the social interaction, especially if we are looking at a familiar environment.

The sensitivity to posture and eye movement is much more ancient than us. Any pack hunting predators use similar changes of position to coordinate their attacks on prey. (I have yet to see a pack of lions sitting down with a white board pre-planning an attack strategy, but it would a great cartoon! :rolleyes:). As hunter-gatherers we have had to use similar alternatives to spoken language or major gestures to prevent spooking our prey, so we are naturally inclined to look for these subtitles of posture. In the few remaining hunter-gatherer societies left, such as the Pigmy people of West and Central Africa, one can still see exactly those subtle manifestations of body language in their hunting methods.

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