Quest for a mirrorless for an amateur ugrading from point-and-shoot and iPhone

If you are going to make a judgement based on a situation you are unlikely to face? I some years back read the dpreview report of the Panasonic G3 and realised that their gripes were about situations/things which had no interest to me ...I bought the camera and it was a tremendous camera and only later did I get the GH2. 'was' because in a moment of generosity I left it behind in the States for my son to use :)
On the rare occasions when I decided to shoot some sport as an 'exercise' I found no problem with CD on the basis that if you understand a problem you can allow for it ... but if you just blaze away as usual you are asking for trouble :) I wonder if the GX is all that wonderful a camera for certain subjects, doesn't appeal to me as a design type. It is not a FF DSLR and shouldn't be used as one?

The 'problem' ... irritating but easy enough to edit the second posting :) Like faults in cameras one makes allowances :)

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Originally Posted by mariosprt

.................... John2, care to give your opinion on the Fuji?

There is so much to take in account, things like extra lenses, 3rd party are just as good and cheaper, or not really? Your opinions, please.

Thanks
Mario

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Mario apologies, I missed this post. I will give you an opinion but not on technical specs. There are plenty of reviews on the internet that will do that. I will pass on my experience. I started with the X-Pro1 because it had a size and weight advantage over my Nikon D7100 and because the tax man was kind to me for once. I found it cumbersome to use and it taught me that having a dual viewfinder (optical and electronic) was unnecessary. I very quickly found myself only using the EVF even though it wasn't particularly bright. Auto focus was slower than I would have liked but since I don't regularly photograph sports etc, that didn't worry me. On the plus side the lenses were superb (even the 18-55mm kit zoom), the noise performance was best in class and the X Tran sensor produced stunning images.

All this was reviewed at the time and Fuji listened to the down side and did something about it. They brought out the second generation of cameras (XT1/XE2etc). I tried the XT-1 and it was a different animal. I traded the X-Pro in and have never looked back. All the pluses were still there but with an improved sensor, a bright EVF and rearranged controls. Auto focus was still not great; it still relied on phase detection. However, in the months that followed, Fuji have released a no. of free of charge firmware updates that have introduced contrast detection in addition to phase detection with the result that autofocus speed is greatly improved and on the later lenses in particular, equals the best. These free upgrades, which have also been released for the X-Pro1 and XE-2, have introduced additional functionality. Too much to list here but examples are manual focus assist, an electronic shutter which increases the available speeds to extremely high level, eye detection in addition to the original face detection(good for portraits) and recently, much improved continuous focussing which was already very good. Some manufacturers would have held back for a new model to encourage sales. The XT-1 also introduced the top of the body dials that eliminate having to go into the menus to change the set up and remote control via the cameras WiFi and a free smart phone App. The Xt-10 came out with all of this as standard.

Because of the size and weight, all of my Fuji gear plus a few extras (Remote/ small tripod etc) fits into messenger bag. I love the camera and now hardly ever use the Nikon. As soon as Fuji bring out their promised 100mm-400mm zoom (next March), my Nikon gear will be traded.

One final point on mirrorless in general is that you see precisely what you are taking in the EVF including the effect of things like exposure compensation. Interior shots for instance become so much easier to judge. This advantage has become more valuable the more I use the camera.

However, I will add two more comments. Firstly, other manufacturers are also rapidly producing performance improvement, in terms of noise performance in particular. Secondly, everything I have posted is about my experience and doesn't necessarily transfer to you. That will depend on how comfortable you are with the camera and it's controls and the sort of photography you are interested in. So although I believe mirrorless in general to be the future and therefore the way to go, that is why I say go and try a few different makes and find the one that suits you. Unless you are comfortable with it, using your final choice will not become second nature and unless it does, you won't be able to solely concentrate on making images. Hope this helps.

Thank you for the reply, John 2

I haven't been much active as well, having spent the last week with a sudden toothache, the likes of which I haven't felt in years.
So haven't made much progress, didn't go to the store to handle some cameras and get a feel for it either.

But the XT-10 has a layout that I find appealing, like it begs to be handled and twist the dials and "make" a photo. The Olympus EM-5 has a similar appeal, and a similar control layout that I like. Those are the contenders on the mirrorless side.

But on the DSLR side, the D5300 in a similar price range, loses in the control layout: menu navigation instead of dials, but has the advantage of having more lenses available (and cheaper 3rd party), and accessories like remotes with timer (for timelapse) that I can't find for Fuji or Olympus. I know the XT-10 can be controlled via App, but I prefer a dedicated device.
Any thoughts?

Thanks
Mario

By the way, John 2...

You said something about... "Trying a few models..."
Well I browsed eBay for a while contemplating getting a used camera cheap and try it out. But sensor technology has advanced so much that a 3-4 year old camera looks so outdated. I feel like I would be missing out on a lot of things...

Oh and I found a remote for the XT-10 on BHphoto (looks like I hadn't looked hard enough) and one for the EM-5, they're almost 100$ each, but they exist :)

I can get the XT-10 w/ 16-50 lens for 750euro locally, I know it's a slow lens compared with the 18-55 but it's a 300euro price diff and I can always get a fast prime later on.
I can also get the EM-5 for 630euro but it's mark I, since mark II is out of my league.

Man, the XT-10 is looking to be the most attractive model.

Mario, either of your contenders will be excellent. The only difference worth mentioning is that the EM-5 has a micro 4/3 rds sensor whereas the Fuji has the slightly larger APS-c sensor. Unless you intend to print large or crop heavily, I doubt you will see a difference in practice. I know someone who happily uses an Olympus 4/3rds camera for wedding photography. The 16-50mm kit lens for the XT-10 gets good reviews. I suspect the major difference is that it is made of plastic but many lenses these days are. When it comes to a remote release, there seem to be more options available for the Olympus particularly if you want a wireless release but the Fuji XT-1 introduced a facility for triggering the camera via the microphone jack. I bought a Hama set up which is designed to be adapted for several cameras merely by screwing in a different adapter lead. The 3.5mm jack connection for Cannon cameras works fine with the XT-1. I wouldn't expect the XT-10 to be any different. I've seen some talk of having to switch the microphone jack to remote somewhere in the camera menu but I can't find that option. Mine just worked from day one. Don't dismiss the smart phone app. It's cheap and it works well with the advantage that you can control other functions like shutter speed, focus etc. remotely. all I would say is don't look at the phone if you use it and are standing in a family group shot. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by jcuknz

If you are going to make a judgement based on a situation you are unlikely to face? I some years back read the dpreview report of the Panasonic G3 and realised that their gripes were about situations/things which had no interest to me ...I bought the camera and it was a tremendous camera and only later did I get the GH2. 'was' because in a moment of generosity I left it behind in the States for my son to use :)
On the rare occasions when I decided to shoot some sport as an 'exercise' I found no problem with CD on the basis that if you understand a problem you can allow for it ... but if you just blaze away as usual you are asking for trouble :) I wonder if the GX is all that wonderful a camera for certain subjects, doesn't appeal to me as a design type. It is not a FF DSLR and shouldn't be used as one?

The 'problem' ... irritating but easy enough to edit the second posting :) Like faults in cameras one makes allowances :)

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Thanks for that, John

Of course all reviews and criticism must take into account the context, the experience of the man behind the viewfinder, his particular needs. So that's why I never rely on a single review (or opinion for that matter). And, of course, one has to pay attention to the apparent advantages/disadvantages.

Thanks
Mario

Hi Mario,
I see you have been working the equipment problem and have made progress bringing found parts of yourself forward toward a fit between your means and desires and some really nice camera selections.

I went through a parallel journey in the spring as a novice selecting a digital camera for a trip my wife and I took in June which included a stay in Porto on our way to a friends 60th birthday party. I have probably a thousand pictures of your town, the tower and all. It was a once in a lifetime 4 day party at our Quinta do Teido on the Duro. So more important than the camera, actually cameras I ended up with is we fell on love with Oporto and also the Duro valley, Lisboa ... but more so with the people. You have a beautiful city. The short of it is I ended up with two new digital cameras, one for us each as my wife was an accomplished film photographer and expropriated the first digital camera I bought so I had to select another. We both photographed Oporto, the Quitnta and the 400 year old farm house overbooking the river above Regosa and then the old part of Lisboa and the castle at Sintra on the way home. Her pocket camera got a movie of our friends kids roasting their father at the birthday dinner where I couldn't get at my full frame camera at our table. We have dual selfies from both cameras in a mirror in the Pena castle, laughing. What a blast! What great memories. Life is to short at my age not to make photographs of what I love. Best of luck, but it seems you have that already.
Cheers
etfide vivo

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Originally Posted by etfide

Hi Mario,
I see you have been working the equipment problem and have made progress bringing found parts of yourself forward toward a fit between your means and desires and some really nice camera selections.

I went through a parallel journey in the spring as a novice selecting a digital camera for a trip my wife and I took in June which included a stay in Porto on our way to a friends 60th birthday party. I have probably a thousand pictures of your town, the tower and all. It was a once in a lifetime 4 day party at our Quinta do Teido on the Duro. So more important than the camera, actually cameras I ended up with is we fell on love with Oporto and also the Duro valley, Lisboa ... but more so with the people. You have a beautiful city. The short of it is I ended up with two new digital cameras, one for us each as my wife was an accomplished film photographer and expropriated the first digital camera I bought so I had to select another. We both photographed Oporto, the Quitnta and the 400 year old farm house overbooking the river above Regosa and then the old part of Lisboa and the castle at Sintra on the way home. Her pocket camera got a movie of our friends kids roasting their father at the birthday dinner where I couldn't get at my full frame camera at our table. We have dual selfies from both cameras in a mirror in the Pena castle, laughing. What a blast! What great memories. Life is to short at my age not to make photographs of what I love. Best of luck, but it seems you have that already.
Cheers
etfide vivo

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Thank you so much for that, Richard.
I'm glad you enjoyed my city! I know many people from other countries who come here for the first time and love it also. I've worked with people from other countries, who find it difficult to leave Porto when professionally they

I realise I m fortunate to live in such a beautiful city, if I may say so myself :) and it's sad that we sometimes don't appreciate such beauty around us, and don't take advantage of it. When I started with my film Canon way back in the 90's it was my goal to shoot all over my city, but film, film developing and printing costs were too much (I was still in school at the time). And I just didn't know enough to setup a small photo lab at home.

So, yes, I know how special Porto is, I mean there is just so much to explore.
We have narrow medieval streets (sometimes) filled with people, and many tourists as well.
We have centuries-old buildings and churches.
We have the river that has very different "faces" wether it's a sun filled day, or a hazy morning with a thick fog coming in from the sea, or a dark, cloudy, rainy winter day.
We have the sea, just 20-30min walk.
And then there is the night shots, getting all of the above at night, it's beautiful!
Man, there is just so much to shoot, and I want to get to it.... with a decent camera to make it all justice :)


Now last night I (finally) went to the store to handle come cameras!
The Nikon D3200, D5200 (and Canon) felt big and chunky, not in a bad way but, bigger than I expected.
The Fuji X-T10 (and the Sony a6000) felt very slim and slick, smaller than I expected.
So, leaning to the X-T10.

I also searched eBay for a used older model, the X-E1. Why? Well because the X-E2 ,X-Pro1 did not loose much value and are almost as expensive 2nd hand.
I found some X-E1's for 260euro body only, but even the 16-50mm lens cost as much as that 2nd hand, so it would be roughly 500euro for X-E1 + lens. And the X-E1 has some limitations compared to newer models, AF, EVF... I don't know...
edit: also the X-E1 does not have the Timelapse (interval) feature, which would lead to an additional cost of about 100euro for. Although I would need a shutter release remote/cable for the X-T10 for those night shots of the city anyway.
edit2: and from what I read on DPreview, it seems to be worse for manual focus with legacy lenses, which I would like to try as well.

Do you guys think i would be happy with the X-E1 (instead of a X-T10, saving 300euro), or will I want the X-T10 soon anyway to have better AF, better EVF, etc?

Thanks
Mario

Taking into account the small differences between the X-t10 and the X-T1, the X-T10 is a bargain. Whether it's worth the extra300euros is a decision for you but don't let the thought of a remote release feature too much. They are not that expensive. e.g. see:

http://shop.photomadd.com/collection...-e2-x-m1-x100t

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Originally Posted by John 2

Taking into account the small differences between the X-t10 and the X-T1, the X-T10 is a bargain. Whether it's worth the extra300euros is a decision for you but don't let the thought of a remote release feature too much. They are not that expensive. e.g. see:

http://shop.photomadd.com/collection...-e2-x-m1-x100t

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Thanks for the link, John2, didn't know that store. But for timelapse on the X-E1 I would need a remote with intervalometer.

I come from a sub 200 euro point-and-shoot, and it seems quite a jump to 800euro (760 on a current sale) for the X-T10.
Just don't want to get buyers remorse...
But it goes either way, don't want to save 300 euro getting the X-E1 and then regret it!
Oh decisions, decisions.... :)

Look through the EVF of both. See what that does for your eye. The camera is an extension of your eye, this is where your imagination will go to see what it can capture. The LCD is where you will see what your minds eye has found. Value is utility over cost. You have to see and feel the difference to be sure if the difference in story telling is worth it to you. No matter what you do, everything will be alright. LOL

Mario - I am getting the impression that you are seriously overthinking this, especially for the price point you are looking at.

Look at the pro cameras and look at the features that they have versus the ones you are dwelling on. If the feature is not found on the pro camera, then you should suspect that the device is of secondary utility. Concentrate on the features that you will use most of the time when choosing a camera. You are buying into a system and that will eventually be much more important than an in-camera intervelometer (unless you are a time-lapse shooter). I use one occasionally, so bought an external one.

Hand the camera, see how the controls feel in your hands (ergonomics), look through the viewfinder and see how it works. Look at the lineup of lenses and accessories that are available for the camera. Those choices are the ones that really matter.

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Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver

Mario - I am getting the impression that you are seriously overthinking this, especially for the price point you are looking at.

Look at the pro cameras and look at the features that they have versus the ones you are dwelling on. If the feature is not found on the pro camera, then you should suspect that the device is of secondary utility. Concentrate on the features that you will use most of the time when choosing a camera. You are buying into a system and that will eventually be much more important than an in-camera intervelometer (unless you are a time-lapse shooter). I use one occasionally, so bought an external one.

Hand the camera, see how the controls feel in your hands (ergonomics), look through the viewfinder and see how it works. Look at the lineup of lenses and accessories that are available for the camera. Those choices are the ones that really matter.

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You think? :)
You're right, I'm overthinking it, but I bought my point-and-shoot because at the time I didn't have time to spend doing all this research, now I do.
The timelapse is something that I want to explore, as I see the possibilities with the Hyperlapse app on the iPhone... But it's just an extra, not the most important feature at all.

There are hundreds of options in mirrorless and DSLR but both will be better than what you use now, there is no comparison. Sony A5000 is a good starting point to start serious photography, here is a comparison of these two cameras:

http://cameradecision.com/compare/So...ny-Alpha-a5000

"serious photography comes from the brain of the user and I have been doing it with digital since I got my Canon s20, a P&S. which was just a 3.3Mp. The more sophisticated camera just helps when in less than ideal situations. but even there the modern P&S is a very capable animal in knowledgeable hands which understands its limitations and how to use its plus points.

Mario...

I have another thought and I am not sure if it has been mentioned or not.

Getting into a Nikon or a Canon system, there are a LOT more lenses available both a lot more types of lenses as well as a lot more copies of each type floating around. This can mean that a person might have a better selection of used lenses.

Although the Sony, with adapters can use Nikon and Canon lenses, you need to make sure that you have full use of these lenses. That is make sure that the camera with adapters will allow auto focus and auto diaphragms (that is the ability to select an f/stop in advance, focus at the maximum aperture, and then have the lens stop down automatically to the selected aperture and open up again to focus and frame the next shot.

Using a camera/lens combination that requires you to focus and compose with the lens stopped down is technology from the 1940's and early 1950's. I have worked with camera/lens combinations like this in the "Dark Ages" and believe me, it is a PITA to use a combination likke this!

The technology of the 21st century - high-resolution electronic viewfinder, live-view, focus peaking, magnified view of the focus area - makes using any lens relatively easy, including at small apertures, except perhaps for shooting subjects that are rapidly changing position.

Cheers.
Philip

[Sony A6000, Pentax K-Mount Adapter, several old and recent Pentax-K lenses.]

Since Mario has expressed a financial limit to his purchase talk about 'family of lens' is irrelevant twaddle.
Sadly it is frequently expressed on serious photo forums. Completely ignoring the resultant cost if one chooses that path. Sadly too, and I am not the only one appreciating the fact that photography is becoming a technical obsession rather than a way of expressing one's ideas. I first saw this in print in 1948 and heaven knows it is a lot more so today.

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Originally Posted by MrB

The technology of the 21st century - high-resolution electronic viewfinder, live-view, focus peaking, magnified view of the focus area - makes using any lens relatively easy, including at small apertures, except perhaps for shooting subjects that are rapidly changing position.

Cheers.
Philip

[Sony A6000, Pentax K-Mount Adapter, several old and recent Pentax-K lenses.]

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"EXCEPT" We have a saying in the U.S.A. but, I am not sure that the humor or sarcasm it will work internationally... "Except for that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?"

The humour is understood, Richard, :) but you seem to be making just one aspect - focus tracking speed - over-rule everything else. There must be many amateur/hobbyist photographers who mainly shoot things that don't rapidly change position. The fact is that, for those scenarios, the technology has moved on and is now very favourable to manual control - high quality lenses already in ones kit, other than the camera manufacturer's latest incarnations, can be used easily and very successfully via an adapter, and give superb quality results. The focus "problem" is easily solved - in those cases where rapid autofocus is required, and the A6000 is one of the quickest, just swap back to a Sony lens. :)

Cheers.
Philip