is it useful to use an nd grad filter with a 10 stop nd filter?

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Originally Posted by dubaiphil

I'll post a walk through:

1/60th, f22, 24mm

http://philpage.zenfolio.com/img/s5/...50726693-6.jpg



Same settings, 3 stop soft ND grad dropped in:

http://philpage.zenfolio.com/img/s9/...18372567-6.jpg


30 seconds with the 10 stop added:

http://philpage.zenfolio.com/img/s5/...57219989-6.jpg

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You changed the order of the photos,thank you,I found out that the order had to be different but changing the order might be helpful for other people.-)

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Originally Posted by bnnrcn

No I'm not confusing Manfred,grad nd is half grey,halt transparent but if I want to use them together it will be better to have a square filter holder and use square 10 stop and rectangular 3 stop nd grad filters both..I'm planning to have long exposures with a 3 stop nd grad and a 10 stop nd together.This is why I started this thread.If you go to the beginnig of thread you will see my first long exposure experiment which was with a 10 stop nd.I wasn't very happy with sky ,so I thought it might be a good idea to add a 3 stop nd grad.

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Binnur - Not necessarily true; I have the Lee grads / holder (including a 105mm CPol) and a B+W 10-stop ND. There is nothing to stop me from using the ND and either hand-holding the Lee grad in front of the ND or screwing the Lee filter holder into the B+W ND and mounting the grad(s) into the Lee holder. Seeing as you already own the B+W 10-stop filter you have a perfectly workable solution already. If you want to go out and buy the Lee Big Stopper, you certainly can. Putting three filters (1-Big Stopper, 1- 3-stop hard grad, one CPol) in the Lee holder is going to give you a higher risk of vignetting at wider angles. The screw in B+W is going to give you a slightly better profile.

Colin was suggesting that the screw in grad is what he threw out, because one cannot adjust the composition of the shot based on where the gradient starts on the filter. I shoot in rainy / snowy conditions and find that I can keep my circular Heliopan grad out of the rain, but the Lee filters are so large and awkward, that I can't.

Off memory, I think the Big Stopper imparts a pretty nasty colourcast. I believe that Singh-Ray have recently introduced a 10 stop moreslo that's much better.

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Originally Posted by Colin Southern

Off memory, I think the Big Stopper imparts a pretty nasty colourcast. I believe that Singh-Ray have recently introduced a 10 stop moreslo that's much better.

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The Lee is pretty colour cast neutral.

If you're going to be using ND Grads the square/rectangular drop in are far and away your best option.

The circular ND grad was straight a cross he middle of the lens, giving you no control over where your graduation would start. Then if you screw in a 100 stop you risk the grad moving. While you screw the 10 stop in and can't. See until after the long exposure is taken.

Literally a waste of time

I can't say I agree with you on this one, Phil. Here is the setup I suggested to Binnur with a mix of Lee and his 10-stop B+W ND.

Image 1:

- 105mm Sigma Cpol
- Lee Holder with 77mm WA adaptor
- 3-stop hard grad Lee filter
- 10-stop B+W ND filter (77mm)

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3752/1...0dab7cd3_b.jpg




Image 2:


Equipment mounted on camera. The 77mm B+W 10-stop ND attached to f/2.8 24-70 Nikkor filter threads. A Lee WA adaptor ring hold the Lee holder with the 3-stop ND, screwed into the 10-stop ND. The Sigma 105mm polarizer is at the front.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3729/1...f07c3512_b.jpg


Using the viewfinder to set up the shot is tricky; as the 10-stop filter nicely blocks out virtually all light, but LiveView works just fine and does a reasonable job showing the composition.

That doesn't seem to disagree with my comments at all......

I was able to set up as similar approach using three 77mm filters.

Again, the 10-stop B+W ND goes against the lens; then the 77mm B+W polarizer (prealigned using LiveView) before screwing in the then the 77mm Heliopan grad. All three filters are brass mount filters so they are easier to get apart, A bit of gaffer tape will keep the polarizer from rotating while mounting the grad. The front element of the grad still turns.

Not as easy as with the Lee setup, but it can still be done. Leave off the polarizer and it is actually quite easy using LiveView.

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Originally Posted by dubaiphil

The Lee is pretty colour cast neutral.

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Hmmm - not everyone with them seems to agree ...

http://singh-ray.com

Ok Binnur listen as you have a screw in B+W 10 stop filter and you want to add a 3 stop simply use 10 stop than in post use GND tool to add and extra 3 stops to the sky, most people who use a 10 stop want real long exposures 3 to 10 minutes in length. If you want more control using ND and GND than you need to use a filter holder so you can stack filters I have done this however just using the GND tool in ACR works better as I can adjust the number of stops, if added your way I could blow the image completely and not recover it your choice.

Cheers: Allan

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Originally Posted by Polar01

Ok Binnur listen as you have a screw in B+W 10 stop filter and you want to add a 3 stop simply use 10 stop than in post use GND tool to add and extra 3 stops to the sky, most people who use a 10 stop want real long exposures 3 to 10 minutes in length. If you want more control using ND and GND than you need to use a filter holder so you can stack filters I have done this however just using the GND tool in ACR works better as I can adjust the number of stops, if added your way I could blow the image completely and not recover it your choice.

Cheers: Allan

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Unfortunately ...

That approach increases the noise about 8 fold, and reduces the exposure (length) by the same about as doing it digitally doesn't compress the dynamic range of the scene at the time, thus you have to expose for the (brighter) highlights (say, 3 stops brighter).

If you're going to do it digitally (assuming a 3-stop reduction) you need to take 8 consecutive shots and then stack them before applying the digital GND (which incidentally is probably a better way to do it; past a certain point with WA and especially UWA lenses stacking filters turns vignetting into outright obstruction).

what about buying a screw-in nd grad and using it with my screw-in 10 stop B+W nd?Does it cause vignetting?

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Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver

Binnur - Not necessarily true; I have the Lee grads / holder (including a 105mm CPol) and a B+W 10-stop ND. There is nothing to stop me from using the ND and either hand-holding the Lee grad in front of the ND or screwing the Lee filter holder into the B+W ND and mounting the grad(s) into the Lee holder. Seeing as you already own the B+W 10-stop filter you have a perfectly workable solution already. If you want to go out and buy the Lee Big Stopper, you certainly can. Putting three filters (1-Big Stopper, 1- 3-stop hard grad, one CPol) in the Lee holder is going to give you a higher risk of vignetting at wider angles. The screw in B+W is going to give you a slightly better profile.

Colin was suggesting that the screw in grad is what he threw out, because one cannot adjust the composition of the shot based on where the gradient starts on the filter. I shoot in rainy / snowy conditions and find that I can keep my circular Heliopan grad out of the rain, but the Lee filters are so large and awkward, that I can't.

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Originally Posted by bnnrcn

what about buying a screw-in nd grad and using it with my screw-in 10 stop B+W nd?Does it cause vignetting?

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That depends on the lens; a wide angle shot will likely cause vignetting, while a longer shot is less likely to. It really depends on the lens and filter design. Using a polarizer and round grad can be done, but is a pain to do. Why do you think I spent the money on the Lee system? That is one of the reasons.

what about buying a screw-in nd grad and using it with my screw-in 10 stop B+W nd?Does it cause vignetting?
But I won't be able to adjust grad nd properly, because it is screw-in,will I?.Same problem as Colin had:-(If I go and buy a lee filter holder and rectengular nd grad,it is a solution as you said,but if I want to take more than one shot at sunset,it is going to be difficult to take 10 stop nd off each time to set my new position.I might aswell go like this in the beginning till I have enough of the situation and then buy a bigstopper.I can't see any other way.Thanks for the brainstorming:-)

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Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver

Binnur - Not necessarily true; I have the Lee grads / holder (including a 105mm CPol) and a B+W 10-stop ND. There is nothing to stop me from using the ND and either hand-holding the Lee grad in front of the ND or screwing the Lee filter holder into the B+W ND and mounting the grad(s) into the Lee holder. Seeing as you already own the B+W 10-stop filter you have a perfectly workable solution already. If you want to go out and buy the Lee Big Stopper, you certainly can. Putting three filters (1-Big Stopper, 1- 3-stop hard grad, one CPol) in the Lee holder is going to give you a higher risk of vignetting at wider angles. The screw in B+W is going to give you a slightly better profile.

Colin was suggesting that the screw in grad is what he threw out, because one cannot adjust the composition of the shot based on where the gradient starts on the filter. I shoot in rainy / snowy conditions and find that I can keep my circular Heliopan grad out of the rain, but the Lee filters are so large and awkward, that I can't.

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System stopped me from sending this message so I sent it again with some addictions.But I can see that you got my first message.

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Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver

That depends on the lens; a wide angle shot will likely cause vignetting, while a longer shot is less likely to. It really depends on the lens and filter design. Using a polarizer and round grad can be done, but is a pain to do. Why do you think I spent the money on the Lee system? That is one of the reasons.

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As everyone has said; screw-in grads are not a great solution, but if that is all you have, then there are work-arounds.

A 10-stop ND is hard to work with through the viewfinder; with 1/1000th of the light getting through, it really means you are shooting blind. If you use one and you want to shoot this way, you have to remove it for every shot to compose.

I have found that using LiveView is a good work around as you do get around this problem fairly well, so I tend to use this solution where I can. I haven't tried if for sunset shots, so I'm can't give you specific recommendations there. It has worked for me with daylight shots, but with the reduced light levels at sunset, I don't know...

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Originally Posted by bnnrcn

System stopped me from sending this message so I sent it again with some addictions.But I can see that you got my first message.

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Sorry about not noticing your other messages above,I will get used to this system in time I suppose..I read all your explanations and found out that if I use live view mode there wouldn't be any problem to set my new compositions.so I can go and buy a lee filter holder and a rectengular 3 nd grad :-)Thanks again for your help.

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Originally Posted by bnnrcn

Sorry about not noticing your other messages above,I will get used to this system in time I suppose..I read all your explanations and found out that if I use live view mode there wouldn't be any problem to set my new compositions.so I can go and buy a lee filter holder and a rectengular 3 nd grad :-)Thanks again for your help.

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At sunset shots as well,I will give it a go..if it doesn't work ,I can think about it later:-)thanks.

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Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver

A 10-stop ND is hard to work with through the viewfinder; with 1/1000th of the light getting through, it really means you are shooting blind.

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Another reason to use a Singh-Ray Vari-ND; you just drop the attenuation with a twist - recompose - and then whack it back up again :)

Colin,is it possible to use different brands of filters in the same filter holder?Let's say,I have a lee filter holder,can I use other brands of filters,for instance Singh-Ray or they don't fit each other...

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Originally Posted by Colin Southern

Another reason to use a Singh-Ray Vari-ND; you just drop the attenuation with a twist - recompose - and then whack it back up again :)

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The thickness of the filter will be designed for the filter holder from the same manufacturer. You might find some will work together, but certainly not all.

(As I use only Lee, I can't really comment on the other brands).