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Thread: B+W 10 stop ND filter? Suggestion/advice?

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    B+W 10 stop ND filter? Suggestion/advice?

    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...d_Neutral.html

    Does anyone know if this is a good ND filter? I'm going to be using it for landscape so I can use longer exposures. It has pretty good reviews, but I also read somewhere that it has a bit of color casting. Any input? Thanks in advance.

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    Re: B+W 10 stop ND filter? Suggestion/advice?

    Also how do you stack filters? Are they like legos where you can just put them on top of each other? Thanks.

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    Re: B+W 10 stop ND filter? Suggestion/advice?

    Pat

    Don't know that filter, so can't comment.

    But, re your second question. Yes, just keep stacking them up on top of each other. What you got to watch is when you've got so many on that you start to get vignetting because the edges of the filters are starting to be seen. And that will vary depending on the focal length of your lens.

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    Re: B+W 10 stop ND filter? Suggestion/advice?

    Hi Pat,

    I wouldn't recommend using a straight 10 stop ND as you'll lose AF capability - probably lose metering as well - and won't be able to see anything through the viewfinder.

    A far better choice is to use a Singh-Ray Vari-ND; you can choose your aperture - choose your shutterspeed - and then just vary the attenuation to balance the exposure. I have 2 of them, and they're the single most versatile piece of kit I have.

    With regards to filter stacking ... as Donald mentions, vignetting becomes an issue with wide-angle lenses, especially on full frame cameras (it can quickly become outright obstruction).

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    Re: B+W 10 stop ND filter? Suggestion/advice?

    What about a Lightcraft fader filter, 2-8 stop. 60-80 pounds UK.

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    Re: B+W 10 stop ND filter? Suggestion/advice?

    I have the Big Stopper from Lee. works very well.
    The advantage of the LEE concept is that you buy just one filter and can use it on different lenses with different diameter.
    For the different diameters you only need a adaptor ring.
    Cokin has something common but I don't have experience with them.
    Before I invested in a filter like that I experimented with so called Welding glass. It's not very suitable for serious photography because it gives a huge colour cast. From the other hand it gives you an idea what to expect from filters with high density.
    Stacking filters is not recommended. Also this gives you noticeable more colour-cast.

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    Re: B+W 10 stop ND filter? Suggestion/advice?

    Man I really want the singh ray. It's like 4 filters in one, but at the $400 price tag I am going to have to wait.

    Does anyone know how to calculate exposure time? Like is there a certain method when using 10 stop fliters?
    Last edited by b00gym4n; 16th April 2011 at 06:06 PM.

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    Re: B+W 10 stop ND filter? Suggestion/advice?

    I have the Singh Ray and it's great. But I have used others and as I'm hardly going to use ND for action shots I don't really understand why loss of af would be a problem, so long as I am careful with the setup. Frankly, the stacking depends on the lens you are going to use the filters with. Long telephoto isn't going to be too much of an issue. It complicates the exposure calculations but experimentation is fun and sometimes the vignetting if you get it is of itself attractive and any color cast too can add rather than take away. Get out in the field and take exposures at different settings and see what you get. The beauty of digital, it really costs nothing and the results can surprise and delight.

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    Re: B+W 10 stop ND filter? Suggestion/advice?

    Measure without filter. Place filter and overexpose for 10 stops.
    E.g. 1/1000 sec without filter will end up to 1 sec with filter.
    You have to experiment with the values. These are just guidelines to give you a staring point.
    Luckily there is no such thing as a schwarzchild effect like you have to take in account with film.

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    Re: B+W 10 stop ND filter? Suggestion/advice?

    I better buy some sun block... it's going to be a long day. Lol thanks.

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    Re: B+W 10 stop ND filter? Suggestion/advice?

    Hi Paul,

    Quote Originally Posted by Chesil View Post
    But I have used others and as I'm hardly going to use ND for action shots I don't really understand why loss of af would be a problem, so long as I am careful with the setup.
    One might think that if one is using additional attenuation then they'd already be at a narrow aperture like F22 or F32, but that isn't always the case:

    - Some prefer an aperture around F11 for better diffraction control

    - Some prefer a wider aperture for DoF control, and

    - Some prefer a wider aperture to reduce the "star" effect that narrow apertures give to point light sources

    So in many ways, using ND attenuation gives the attenuation that a narrow aperture would have given, but without the "side effects". And if this is the case then focusing becomes important. Because the viewfinder is too dark to focus manually, all one can do is focus before applying the ND attenuation - switch the lens to manual focus mode - and then add the attenuation. There's nothing hard about it per sec, but as you say, one does have to be careful - very careful - because if one gets it wrong, then a loss of the whole series is possible. Personally, I often install the lens hood on backwards in these situations so that it covers the manual focus ring.

    Frankly, the stacking depends on the lens you are going to use the filters with. Long telephoto isn't going to be too much of an issue. It complicates the exposure calculations but experimentation is fun and sometimes the vignetting if you get it is of itself attractive and any color cast too can add rather than take away.
    Agreed - however this technique is more likely to be associated with a landscape shot - and landscape shots tend to be associated with wider angle lenses. This shot was taken at 16mm with stacked filters, and as you can see, it's not just vignetting ...

    B+W 10 stop ND filter? Suggestion/advice?

    Get out in the field and take exposures at different settings and see what you get. The beauty of digital, it really costs nothing and the results can surprise and delight.
    For sure, but if one can apply a little "Educated" to the "guess" part of the exposure calculation, then it increases the chances of "delight" over "(nasty) surprise" at the end of a 40 minute wait!

    B+W 10 stop ND filter? Suggestion/advice?
    Last edited by Colin Southern; 17th April 2011 at 01:26 AM.

  12. #12
    rob marshall

    Re: B+W 10 stop ND filter? Suggestion/advice?

    I have a B+W 10, but I find I have hardly used it. My problem is that if I stop for more than three nano-seconds to take a shot my wife accuses me of 'slacking' (whatever that is) and starts drumming her fingers on the side of my (empty) head with frustration. If I suggest going out on my own then I get accusations of willful infidelity. What is a man to do? Of the shots I've seen done by others I find the best effect is where you have something very static as the main subject (such as a building) with the movement in the sky. I think the filter suits B&W shots best, so any colour cast shouldn't be too much of a problem.

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    Re: B+W 10 stop ND filter? Suggestion/advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by rob marshall View Post
    if I stop for more than three nano-seconds to take a shot my wife accuses me of 'slacking' (whatever that is) and starts drumming her fingers on the side of my (empty) head with frustration. If I suggest going out on my own then I get accusations of willful infidelity. What is a man to do?
    You can get her addicted to photography, though that may have you hanging out at other kinds of shops when she says "We're going shopping", but at least you have a greater potential of using what she buys. ( Sharing lenses is fine, I wouldn't recommend sharing each others swim wear )

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    Re: B+W 10 stop ND filter? Suggestion/advice?

    Pat,
    I own (and use ) the B&W 10 stops ND filter. I have the 77mm version for my 17-40mm L lens. I find it very useful because I like the effect on moving water or moving clouds.

    Mine does affect the colours a bit. I don't know exactly how to describe it, so here's an example.

    B+W 10 stop ND filter? Suggestion/advice?

    For me that isn't a problem since I mostly use it for black and white photography like:

    B+W 10 stop ND filter? Suggestion/advice?

    Keep in mind that also the camera it selves can have a part in colour cast. A crack in the body could cause an unexpected result which will only be visible at long exposures. Also forgetting to cover the viewfinder during exposure can.

  15. #15
    rob marshall

    Re: B+W 10 stop ND filter? Suggestion/advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steaphany View Post
    ( Sharing lenses is fine, I wouldn't recommend sharing each others swim wear )
    Steaphany

    How prescient you are. Just 20 mins ago, after a hot day in the garden, I was sharing a beer with my wife. I had my shirt off. She suddenly said to me - "Rob, did you know that you have female breasts?" Obviously a rhetorical question. I guess I need to dig out my bikini.

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    Re: B+W 10 stop ND filter? Suggestion/advice?

    Thanks for the replies. I ordered a bunch of new toys last night, can't wait to start using them. While I was doing some research I found this chart hand made for the B+W #110 that might come in handy.

    Shutter Speeds part 1
    No Filter With Filter
    30sec 8H 32min
    25sec 7H 6min 40sec
    20sec 5H 41min 20sec
    15sec 4H 16min
    13sec 3H 41min 52sec
    10sec 2H 50min 40sec
    8sec 2H 16min 32sec
    6sec 1H 42min 24sec
    5sec 1H 25min 20sec
    4sec 1H 8min 16sec
    3sec 51min 12sec
    2.5sec 42min 40sec
    2sec 34min 8sec
    1.6sec 27min 19sec
    1.3sec 22min 12sec
    1sec 17min 4sec
    1/1.3sec 13min 8sec
    1/1.6sec 10min 40sec
    1/2sec 8min 32sec
    1/2.5sec 6min 50sec
    1/3sec 5min 42sec
    1/4sec 4min 16sec
    1/5sec 3min 25sec
    1/6sec 2min 51sec
    1/8sec 2min 8sec
    1/10sec 1min 43sec


    Sutter Speeds part 2
    No filter With Filter
    1/13sec 1min 19sec
    1/15sec 1min 9sec
    1/20sec 52sec
    1/25sec 41sec
    1/30sec 34sec
    1/40sec 26sec
    1/50sec 21sec
    1/60sec 17sec
    1/80sec 13sec
    1/100 11sec
    1/125sec 9sec
    1/160sec 6.4sec
    1/200sec 5.1sec
    1/250sec 4sec
    1/320sec 3.2sec
    1/400sec 2.5sec
    1/500sec 2sec
    1/640sec 1.6sec
    1/800sec 1.3sec
    1/1000sec 1sec
    1/1250sec 0.82sec (1.3)
    1/1600sec 0.64sec (1.5)
    1/2000sec 0.51sec (2)
    1/2500sec 0.40sec (2.5)
    1/3200sec 0.32sec - (3)
    1/4000sec 0.25sec - (4)

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    JK6065's Avatar
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    Re: B+W 10 stop ND filter? Suggestion/advice?


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    Re: B+W 10 stop ND filter? Suggestion/advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by b00gym4n View Post
    Man I really want the singh ray. It's like 4 filters in one, but at the $400 price tag I am going to have to wait.

    Does anyone know how to calculate exposure time? Like is there a certain method when using 10 stop fliters?
    Yep; hows about a thousand times longer. Say you had exposure at F (number) at 1/1000 sec then ten stop is !/500,1/250,1/125,1/60,1/30,1/15,1/8,1/4,1/2,1 secs or ten stops

    It is easy really.

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    Re: B+W 10 stop ND filter? Suggestion/advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by JK6065 View Post
    Thanks for this link Jeroen!
    I wasn't aware of it's existence, very interesting.

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    Re: B+W 10 stop ND filter? Suggestion/advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Colin Southern View Post
    Hi Paul,



    One might think that if one is using additional attenuation then they'd already be at a narrow aperture like F22 or F32, but that isn't always the case:

    - Some prefer an aperture around F11 for better diffraction control

    - Some prefer a wider aperture for DoF control, and

    - Some prefer a wider aperture to reduce the "star" effect that narrow apertures give to point light sources

    So in many ways, using ND attenuation gives the attenuation that a narrow aperture would have given, but without the "side effects". And if this is the case then focusing becomes important. Because the viewfinder is too dark to focus manually, all one can do is focus before applying the ND attenuation - switch the lens to manual focus mode - and then add the attenuation. There's nothing hard about it per sec, but as you say, one does have to be careful - very careful - because if one gets it wrong, then a loss of the whole series is possible. Personally, I often install the lens hood on backwards in these situations so that it covers the manual focus ring.



    Agreed - however this technique is more likely to be associated with a landscape shot - and landscape shots tend to be associated with wider angle lenses. This shot was taken at 16mm with stacked filters, and as you can see, it's not just vignetting ...

    B+W 10 stop ND filter? Suggestion/advice?



    For sure, but if one can apply a little "Educated" to the "guess" part of the exposure calculation, then it increases the chances of "delight" over "(nasty) surprise" at the end of a 40 minute wait!

    B+W 10 stop ND filter? Suggestion/advice?
    I say again that use of an ND filter of 10 stops is hardly for action photography, or for macro work and by prefocusing before the addition of the filter you're unlikely to be troubled by the loss of af. I have never needed to put on the hood reversed. I also understand the distance to subject and use the aid the lens supplies.

    Primarily, photography is meant to be a fun way for creativity. Bog down in math and delight never happens. I suspect that you and I both spent a lot of time in darkrooms calculating exposures of photographic paper. For me it was a means to an end and I don't miss it, but even than I was ready to experiment with different exposure times to see what unexpected results could be found.

    I doubt many will be taking 40 minute exposures. I can't recall taking any of those for many years. Stacking software obviates the need. I usually find myself taking longer IR exposures than ever I would with a 10 stop ND, and most of those are well under 10 minutes.

    B+W 10 stop ND filter? Suggestion/advice?

    As for the vignetting, you are arguing for the sake of arguing. I said it depends on the lens. And there are many great landscapes to be taken with a telephoto.

    Cheers

    Paul

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