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Thread: Project 52 - Print

  1. #21
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    Re: Project 52 - Print

    Quote Originally Posted by rudi View Post
    Hi John,
    I especially like the shape off the tree (the big branches). I would be tempted to clone out the red/wite sticks beside the path.
    Maybe lighten the path a bit ??
    A good challenge for your printer I think, esp the green grass, the churchdoor...just My 2 cents...
    Hi Rudi,

    Yes my current printer wouldn't be able to handle the blacks very well which is one of the reasons why I'm in the market for another, other reasons being I'm currently using third party inks (original manuf. stopped) and some of the inventory received is about ten years old. I find myself having to unclog every other cartridge and I know they'll eventually stop selling. The other reason for a new printer is going to a wider format, better black rendering, hopefully lower cost per prints, etc.

    Regarding this image, the tree is my favorite other element within, the others obviously being the rich colors of the door, and in the full capture the rays of light beaming from their sources. Thanks for commenting. Was the caption easy to read?

  2. #22
    Administrator Manfred M's Avatar
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    Re: Project 52 - Print

    Andre - I thought I had answered that in #11 where I suggested: "matte paper that I usually reserve for B&W or portraiture prints and a lustre paper that I use for everything else."

    Dmax, vibrance, etc. are all fine to know, but in the end, I primarily look at the paper finish as to the key driver for the paper I plan to use.

    Other key factors in longevity are factors like no optical bleaching agents (OBA). As mentioned by Dan, these do give the images a very bright look, but do deteriorate over time. Specs are sometimes hard to find, especially with some of the the third party manufacturers, but the words "bright" or "vibrant" can be taken to suggest that these papers contain OBAs. As I noted in #11; OBAs need ultraviolet light for that effect to kick in, so sunlight or fluorescent lights will trigger this action. Tungsten light bulbs have no effect on OBAs. I suspect halogen lights might trigger them and I'm not sure about LED lights.

    Rag / cotton papers last much longer than wood based ones and anything that says lignin-free is going to give a longer life. Acid free papers are also long life papers and the second best choice are pH buffered ones. If this is not listed you can assume it is an acidic paper, which means that the colours will deteriorate over time.

    In terms of finishes; in general a glossy paper will give you the brightest colours and deepest blacks, but these have the downside of reflecting more light which means one has to be careful of the angle one uses these on. I used to do a lot of glossy work, especially for shots of athletes in action, but really have stopped doing that type of photography. They can work very well for older people with weathered faces as they tend to have higher contrast.

    Matte papers give more muted colours and blacks, but will give you a softer looking image. I prefer these for prints of women, families and children as these tend to give softer looking images. I have been using matte papers for the limited number of B&W landscapes I have been printing, just because the scenes tend to line up with the interpretation I was looking for.

    My "go to" paper has been a lustre finish, especially for general colour prints. It seems to give me the brilliant colours I am looking for without the high reflectance issues there are with glossy finishes. The glossy and lustre finishes on these papers come from a thin resin coating, so the surface finish is a plastic. All plastics do yellow over time.

    I am planning to do some experimenting with some of the beautiful fine art papers that are on the market as part of the Print 52 exercise. The only downside with these is that they are quite expensive and the surface finishes tend to be on the matte side. I have not printed on any of the canvas or metal finish papers, so can't comment there.

    The other thing I am looking at experimenting with are anti-fade coatings. I had used these in the past, but they tended to give the image a slight yellow tinge (yellow is the compliment of blue, so the UV rays are blocked by it). I understand that this will double the life of the inks, if one is using archival, acid-free paper.

    In the wet darkroom days, there was one more variable, which was paper tint for B&W papers Off-white papers were used for portraiture work, but we can emulate that on our printers these days.

    I hope this helps clarify your question.

  3. #23
    Administrator Manfred M's Avatar
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    Re: Project 52 - Print

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowman View Post
    lower cost per prints, etc.
    That was part of the reason I purchased the printer that I did. As a "general rule", the price of ink is related to the size of the cartridge used by the printer; the larger the cartridge, the lower the cost per print. Of course, this also means replacing a cartridge is more expensive when one looks at unit costs.

    At the time I bought my printer, the cost per print was about 2.5 times as much for a print using 25ml cartridges versus the 80ml cartridges my printer uses.

    The main problem I have with third party inks is that there is usually no data on print life associated with those inks. Some of the old dye based inks would fade within a few months to a few years.

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    Re: Project 52 - Print

    Quote Originally Posted by Manfred M View Post
    At the time I bought my printer, the cost per print was about 2.5 times as much for a print using 25ml cartridges versus the 80ml cartridges my printer uses.
    And then when you use a continuous flow bulk ink system, it becomes even cheaper. I've got the bottles beside the printer and the tubes go into what replaces the cartridges in the cartridge deck. Again, I use PermaJet's Eco-Flo system for the R3000 printer (http://www.permajet.com/ProductGrp/P...lo-CIS-Systems).

    "Topping up the inks only needs to be done every few months as each 125ml replacement bottle of PermaJet ink costing £24.95 contains the equivalent amount of five original ink cartridges costing £110 - thus saving you a massive 75% off your ink costs."
    Last edited by Donald; 2nd December 2017 at 05:34 PM.

  5. #25
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    Re: Project 52 - Print

    Quote Originally Posted by Manfred M View Post
    That was part of the reason I purchased the printer that I did. As a "general rule", the price of ink is related to the size of the cartridge used by the printer; the larger the cartridge, the lower the cost per print. Of course, this also means replacing a cartridge is more expensive when one looks at unit costs.

    At the time I bought my printer, the cost per print was about 2.5 times as much for a print using 25ml cartridges versus the 80ml cartridges my printer uses.

    The main problem I have with third party inks is that there is usually no data on print life associated with those inks. Some of the old dye based inks would fade within a few months to a few years.
    I thought cost of paper would be lower as well if purchased in roll format, but under most configurations its cheaper to buy sheets. You might save a bit of labor with the roll as you don't have to load the printer as much, with some papers you can only feed one at a time; but for some sizes the cost is only a few cents between sheets and roll.

  6. #26
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    Re: Project 52 - Print

    Quote Originally Posted by Donald View Post
    And then when you use a continuous flow bulk ink system, it becomes even cheaper. I've got the bottles beside the printer and the tubes go into what replaces the cartridges in the cartridge deck. Again, I use PermaJet's Eco-Flo system for the R3000 printer (http://www.permajet.com/ProductGrp/P...lo-CIS-Systems).

    "Topping up the inks only needs to be done every few months as each 125ml replacement bottle of PermaJet ink costing £24.95 contains the equivalent amount of five original ink cartridges costing £110 - thus saving you a massive 75% off your ink costs."
    At one time CIS was heavily frowned upon by the OEM; but I see some models of Epson are manufactured with refillables; hopefully the industry will get on board and stop creating obstacles, interesting that printer manufacturers make such a profit on that magic fluid.

  7. #27

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    Re: Project 52 - Print

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowman View Post
    Hi Rudi,

    ...... Was the caption easy to read?
    For me yes for sure.

  8. #28
    Administrator Manfred M's Avatar
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    Re: Project 52 - Print

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowman View Post
    I thought cost of paper would be lower as well if purchased in roll format, but under most configurations its cheaper to buy sheets. You might save a bit of labor with the roll as you don't have to load the printer as much, with some papers you can only feed one at a time; but for some sizes the cost is only a few cents between sheets and roll.
    My printer does not handle roll feed, which is why I use sheet paper.

    Roll paper has curl to it and it does not lie flat unless you let it sit for a long lime or mechanically flatten it.


    Last edited by Manfred M; 2nd December 2017 at 07:33 PM.

  9. #29
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    Re: Project 52 - Print

    Quote Originally Posted by Manfred M View Post
    My printer does not handle roll feed, which is why I use sheet paper.

    Roll paper has curl to it and it does not lie flat unless you let it sit for a long lime or mechanically flatten it.


    Thanks for the link, I would rather prepare the paper beforehand although I've read that for drying times/b & w photos you should place a sheet of paper over the print and apply a weight to help remove excess ink and drying time should be more than 24 hours.

  10. #30
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    Re: Project 52 - Print

    Quote Originally Posted by Manfred M View Post
    Andre - I thought I had answered that in #11 where I suggested: "matte paper that I usually reserve for B&W or portraiture prints and a lustre paper that I use for everything else."

    Dmax, vibrance, etc. are all fine to know, but in the end, I primarily look at the paper finish as to the key driver for the paper I plan to use.

    Other key factors in longevity are factors like no optical bleaching agents (OBA). As mentioned by Dan, these do give the images a very bright look, but do deteriorate over time. Specs are sometimes hard to find, especially with some of the the third party manufacturers, but the words "bright" or "vibrant" can be taken to suggest that these papers contain OBAs. As I noted in #11; OBAs need ultraviolet light for that effect to kick in, so sunlight or fluorescent lights will trigger this action. Tungsten light bulbs have no effect on OBAs. I suspect halogen lights might trigger them and I'm not sure about LED lights.

    Rag / cotton papers last much longer than wood based ones and anything that says lignin-free is going to give a longer life. Acid free papers are also long life papers and the second best choice are pH buffered ones. If this is not listed you can assume it is an acidic paper, which means that the colours will deteriorate over time.

    In terms of finishes; in general a glossy paper will give you the brightest colours and deepest blacks, but these have the downside of reflecting more light which means one has to be careful of the angle one uses these on. I used to do a lot of glossy work, especially for shots of athletes in action, but really have stopped doing that type of photography. They can work very well for older people with weathered faces as they tend to have higher contrast.

    Matte papers give more muted colours and blacks, but will give you a softer looking image. I prefer these for prints of women, families and children as these tend to give softer looking images. I have been using matte papers for the limited number of B&W landscapes I have been printing, just because the scenes tend to line up with the interpretation I was looking for.

    My "go to" paper has been a lustre finish, especially for general colour prints. It seems to give me the brilliant colours I am looking for without the high reflectance issues there are with glossy finishes. The glossy and lustre finishes on these papers come from a thin resin coating, so the surface finish is a plastic. All plastics do yellow over time.

    I am planning to do some experimenting with some of the beautiful fine art papers that are on the market as part of the Print 52 exercise. The only downside with these is that they are quite expensive and the surface finishes tend to be on the matte side. I have not printed on any of the canvas or metal finish papers, so can't comment there.

    The other thing I am looking at experimenting with are anti-fade coatings. I had used these in the past, but they tended to give the image a slight yellow tinge (yellow is the compliment of blue, so the UV rays are blocked by it). I understand that this will double the life of the inks, if one is using archival, acid-free paper.

    In the wet darkroom days, there was one more variable, which was paper tint for B&W papers Off-white papers were used for portraiture work, but we can emulate that on our printers these days.

    I hope this helps clarify your question.
    You had indeed. My bad for not picking it up. I must add that your detailed explanation in this post fully answers the questions that I had about paper selections. Thank you Manfred.

  11. #31
    Administrator Manfred M's Avatar
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    Re: Project 52 - Print

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowman View Post
    Thanks for the link, I would rather prepare the paper beforehand although I've read that for drying times/b & w photos you should place a sheet of paper over the print and apply a weight to help remove excess ink and drying time should be more than 24 hours.
    If there is excess ink, then the print setup is incorrect. The image should be dry to the touch by the time it has come out of the printer.

    There is a little bit of truth regarding accelerating the drying process by using a sheet of clean, dry paper (moisture content has to be lower than the printed paper) on it for some period, but frankly the only reason I can see doing that is that is if someone is planning to frame the image right away and needs accelerated drying. Natural drying, which is largely the areas of the paper hit by the ink losing their moisture. Waiting 24-48 hours before framing is a far simpler approach and reduces the risk of damage to the print.

    One other issues with drying ink and paper is that there will be a slight colour shift and again, in theory one should wait for 24 hours before evaluating the print. In practice, I find that waiting an hour or two is enough.

  12. #32

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    Re: Project 52 - Print

    The way most modern day inkjet printers work, you do not need any paper for drying. You have to remember that paper sucks, and it sucks moisture both in and out. So if the humidity is high longer drying time than if the humidity is low, Matt papers take longer than coated papers, reason good matt paper is rag, thus the ink is applied more heavily as it is sucked down in the fibres of the paper itself whereas coated less ink and it sits on the surface of the paper. That is why it is important to tell the printer which media is being used along with the paper used.

    Cheers: Allan

  13. #33
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    Re: Project 52 - Print

    I used to let prints sit for a day with a sheet of paper over them, but it made no difference compared with my current approach, which is simply to let them gas out uncovered for a day or so before framing. For things that won't be framed--for example, cards printed on heavy matte card stock--even that seems to be unnecessary.

    BTW, an unrelated note: I am out of the mainstream in that I use a printer with dye-based inks. Many paper manufacturers specify which type of ink each of their papers is best suited for. I no longer pay much attention because I never have had bad luck with a paper specified as appropriate for pigments. I don't know whether that is a function of the specific papers used.

    Re inks and costs: some years ago, I looked at what tests I could find of non-OEM inks, and the results I found were very unimpressive, but that was for a very limited set of inks. There may be more tests on sites like Wilhelm now.

    Re River Paper has a table showing costs per print for various papers and printers. It's only their papers, of course, but it is a good rough guide anyway. E.g., if you use a luster paper from another manufacturer, Red River's luster paper is probably a decent approximation, as both are coated and pebbled.
    Last edited by DanK; 3rd December 2017 at 06:24 PM.

  14. #34
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    Re: Project 52 - Print

    Manfred,

    Does your post above suggest that you use luster papers that don't have OBAs? If so, which ones?

    thanks

    Dan

  15. #35
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    Re: Project 52 - Print

    Quote Originally Posted by DanK View Post
    Manfred,

    Does your post above suggest that you use luster papers that don't have OBAs? If so, which ones?

    thanks

    Dan
    Not at all Dan. Papers with a surface finish tend to be the resin coated family and I suspect any of these papers likely contain OBAs.

    Usually the OBA free papers tend to be the archival ones and those tend to have matte finishes. The manufacturers seem to be unclear on some of this information, so it's hard to tell. The words "bright" or "vivid" in the literature tend to suggest that the papers have OBAs, but omitting them doesn't mean that they are OBA free.

    I was looking at ordering some more paper this weekend and came across one spec that reported "minimal OBA"; whatever that means... I've just ordered some Epson Hot Press and Cold Press papers that are OBA free and will see how they work. Epson had those two on sale.
    Last edited by Manfred M; 4th December 2017 at 01:46 PM.

  16. #36
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    Re: Project 52 - Print

    Manfred,

    thanks. This is consistent with the conclusion I reached some years ago, which was that most of the reasonably cold coated papers have OBAs.

    I haven't yet noticed problems, but time will tell.

    Dan

  17. #37
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    Re: Project 52 - Print

    Manfred, count me in.

    This may help provide encouragement to be more disciplined about printing. Digital rot, as you called it, will be an enormous issue in years to come. I've been recently looking at family and other photos taken 30-100 years ago. They can still be enjoyed and referenced. Yet the photos I've taken since going digital will disappear apart from the very very few I've printed.

  18. #38
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    Re: Project 52 - Print

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowman View Post
    Andre,

    Have you looked to the paper manufacturer for guidance? For instance, I went to the Epson website and requested sample prints and also a media package (45 page booklet) describing their various papers, prices, suggested subject matter. The booklet also includes each paper's base weight, thickness, permanence, brightness, finish, etc.
    Just received sample prints by Vincent Versace of Epson's Legacy papers (Etching, Platine, Fibre, Baryta) and am solely a glossy/lustre fan but the Fibre selection can simulate a glossy look if the right subject is captured.

    http://www.imaging-resource.com/news...-premium-price

  19. #39
    Administrator Manfred M's Avatar
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    Re: Project 52 - Print

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowman View Post
    Just received sample prints by Vincent Versace of Epson's Legacy papers (Etching, Platine, Fibre, Baryta) and am solely a glossy/lustre fan but the Fibre selection can simulate a glossy look if the right subject is captured.

    http://www.imaging-resource.com/news...-premium-price
    Those are very high-end papers and are ones I would only use to print fine art images that I intend to frame.

  20. #40

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    Re: Project 52 - Print

    Manfred I found that the Epson Hot Press Bright is very similar to the Hahnemule 308 Rag which costs more. I like it for B&W images that are more midtones instead of very deep blacks and bright whites. I would say that those images that Donald does would look to my way of thinking very good on the Epson Hot Press Bright, I like it better than the Natural.

    Cheers: Allan

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