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Thread: Lightroom 5 Color Space Discrepancy

  1. #1
    Round Tuit's Avatar
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    Lightroom 5 Color Space Discrepancy

    I have used PS CS4 for seven years and Lightroom 5 for either four or five years. My usual workflow is to import, convert to DNG and do global adjustments using Lightroom. If localised processing is needed I use CS4 to do it and then return to Lightroom for cataloguing and printing.

    Last week I had to re-register Lightroom. I assume that a Windows 10 update clobbered part of the registry. At the same time, I updated to version 5.7.1. I don't know what version I had before. To my dismay, I have discovered that the "Develop" module now uses the "Pro-Photo" color space but the "Library" module uses either "sRGB" or "AdobeRGB". Does anyone know of a setting that I might have accidentally change in the process of updating or of a way to correct this problem short of uninstalling the update and returning to my original version.

    André

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    Re: Lightroom 5 Color Space Discrepancy

    Hi Andre,

    I'm a little confused about what you are seeing. Internally, LR always uses Melissa, a variant of Prophoto. It translates that color space to sRBG to display on an sRGB screen, but it that doesn't affect the working space. It changes color space when you export, giving you the choice (via a drop-down list in the export dialog) of sRGB, aRGB, or Prophoto. This has been constant since I first used LR, which I think was version 2 or 3.

    Can you say more about the symptoms? Do the colors look different on the screen in the two modules?

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    Round Tuit's Avatar
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    Re: Lightroom 5 Color Space Discrepancy

    Quote Originally Posted by DanK View Post
    Hi Andre,

    I'm a little confused about what you are seeing. Internally, LR always uses Melissa, a variant of Prophoto. It translates that color space to sRBG to display on an sRGB screen, but it that doesn't affect the working space. It changes color space when you export, giving you the choice (via a drop-down list in the export dialog) of sRGB, aRGB, or Prophoto. This has been constant since I first used LR, which I think was version 2 or 3.

    Can you say more about the symptoms? Do the colors look different on the screen in the two modules?
    Hi Dan,

    My version of Lightroom has behaved the same as yours since I got it. With the updated version that I now have installed, the colors look very different in the Library module than the Develop module. I determine the color space used by using the "softproof" option in the develop module. Softproofing to Prophoto gives me the rendition of the develop module. With the same photo selected, I have to softproof to sRGB or AdobeRGB to get the picture to look like the one in the Library module. I have a wide gamut, profiled and calibrated monitor. I don't understand what is going on.

    Thanks for your interest.

    André

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    Administrator Manfred M's Avatar
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    Re: Lightroom 5 Color Space Discrepancy

    Andre - Adobe re-wrote the basic raw conversion engine in 2010 and again in 2012. If you have been using CS4 (which came out in 2008, you were using the old engine that came out in 2003.

    I don't know if Lightroom lets you do it, but in Camera Raw lets you use the current or one of the older processing variants. I suspect that this might be the reason the Library module is giving you grief. It is showing the old images but displaying them with the new. Try opening one up and updating to see if this fixes things.

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    Round Tuit's Avatar
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    Re: Lightroom 5 Color Space Discrepancy

    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver View Post
    Andre - Adobe re-wrote the basic raw conversion engine in 2010 and again in 2012. If you have been using CS4 (which came out in 2008, you were using the old engine that came out in 2003.

    I don't know if Lightroom lets you do it, but in Camera Raw lets you use the current or one of the older processing variants. I suspect that this might be the reason the Library module is giving you grief. It is showing the old images but displaying them with the new. Try opening one up and updating to see if this fixes things.
    That makes sense Manfred since the problem only started after I updated Lightroom. I will revert back to my old version and see what happens. Updating CS4 does not seem to be an option.

    I'll keep you posted.

    André

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    Re: Lightroom 5 Color Space Discrepancy

    Quote Originally Posted by Round Tuit View Post
    That makes sense Manfred since the problem only started after I updated Lightroom. I will revert back to my old version and see what happens. Updating CS4 does not seem to be an option.

    I'll keep you posted.

    André
    I reinstalled Lightroom 5.2 and the problem is still there. Any suggestions?

    André

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    Administrator Manfred M's Avatar
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    Re: Lightroom 5 Color Space Discrepancy

    Unfortunately no. You are running and up to date version of Lightroom and you have a conflict with files created by an old version Photoshop. The normal direction would be to run an up to date version of Photoshop, but you have ruled that out.

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    Round Tuit's Avatar
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    Re: Lightroom 5 Color Space Discrepancy

    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver View Post
    Unfortunately no. You are running and up to date version of Lightroom and you have a conflict with files created by an old version Photoshop. The normal direction would be to run an up to date version of Photoshop, but you have ruled that out.
    Manfred, The problem occurs mostly with files imported directly from the memory card from my camera into the Lightroom catalog. I shoot raw and convert from CR2 to DNG while importing. It has nothing to do with CS4. Sorry if I weren't clear before. Of course it also, only happens with photos that exceed the AdobeRGB or sRGB gamuts.

    André

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    Administrator Manfred M's Avatar
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    Re: Lightroom 5 Color Space Discrepancy

    When the Lightroom imports the image from your camera, it will apply any settings you have applied in camera, as it relies on the metadata that accompanies the raw file. This suggests to me that any out of gamut (OOG) data handling would already be embedded in the jpeg previews you see. I don't see any information in my camera manual regarding how OOG is handled, but would not be at all surprised if it defaulted to "Relative Colormetric".

    Lightroom seems to give you very limited control on settings.

  10. #10
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    Re: Lightroom 5 Color Space Discrepancy

    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver View Post
    When the Lightroom imports the image from your camera, it will apply any settings you have applied in camera, as it relies on the metadata that accompanies the raw file. This suggests to me that any out of gamut (OOG) data handling would already be embedded in the jpeg previews you see. I don't see any information in my camera manual regarding how OOG is handled, but would not be at all surprised if it defaulted to "Relative Colormetric".

    Lightroom seems to give you very limited control on settings.
    My understanding is that when I look at a photo in the library module of Lightroom, I am looking at a raw file with all the settings that I have applied in the develop module; there is no jpeg involved. At least that is the way that it seems to me so far. I have not found any settings to direct Lightroom to use different color space based on the module in use. I don't understand why it does and would be curious to know if anybody else has experience this problem.

    André

  11. #11
    Administrator Manfred M's Avatar
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    Re: Lightroom 5 Color Space Discrepancy

    Quote Originally Posted by Round Tuit View Post
    My understanding is that when I look at a photo in the library module of Lightroom, I am looking at a raw file with all the settings that I have applied in the develop module; there is no jpeg involved. At least that is the way that it seems to me so far. I have not found any settings to direct Lightroom to use different color space based on the module in use. I don't understand why it does and would be curious to know if anybody else has experience this problem.

    André
    The library module shows me files I have not touched, so it can't be just the edits. The LR software uses the .xmp sidecar files during import to set the data when it adds files to the catalogue. Edits then update the data in the catalogue. So far as I can tell, it uses the ProPhoto colour space with a gamma of 1 internally (a.k.a. as Melissa). LR can be set to generate jpegs during the import process (for faster display), so I suspect that these are what we see in the Library pane.

    Unfortunately, I usually use Bridge / ACR, rather than LR, so I'm hardly an expert.

  12. #12
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    Re: Lightroom 5 Color Space Discrepancy

    Problem solved!

    After much googling, I came across a forum either hosted or sponsored by Adobe. Several Lightroom users were complaining of difference in appearance between the Library and the Develop modules. Most of their complaints had to do with difference in the sharpness of their images. One experienced changes in colour.

    The Adobe expert on the panel explained that Lightroom uses 16 bit Prophoto space to display photos in the develop module but uses 8 bit adobeRGB in the Library module to save processing resources. This should be transparent to the user if your monitor profile is working properly. Apparently, Lightroom does not like V4 icc profile and prefers Matrix base V2 profile. The difference in sharpness and noise is explained by the fact that the two modules use different algorithms for re sampling the photo. A down sampled library display will be softer than the same display down sampled in the develop module.

    So the short answer is that my version of Lightroom works as it should. Since my wide gamut monitor's profile is a matrix base V2 profile, why you might ask did I start noticing variations in the colour last week? The answer is that last week was my 47th wedding anniversary. No, I have not drifted off topic. I bought a dozen of the most unusual roses that I had ever seen for my wife. As expected, she said: those are beautiful, you should take a picture of them. Of course I had to comply. The roses were a deep fuschia colour. My camera capture the colour faithfully but the AdobeRGB gamut is too small to display them. I never notice the problem before because most of my photos fit comfortably inside the AdobeRGB colour space.

    The morale of the story is that: coincidences do happen!

    Thanks Dan and Manfred. Sorry to have sent you on a wild goose chase.

    André

  13. #13
    Administrator Manfred M's Avatar
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    Re: Lightroom 5 Color Space Discrepancy

    It's good to know the answer. I've run into a somewhat similar issue when I was working on an image with very deep, vibrant reds. When I converted to post the image on the internet, the sRGB image looked downright flat. The difference was purely the colour space limitations and how the OOG colours were handled.

    When I printed it (from a ProPhoto base), it looked far better than the sRGB image on the net.

  14. #14
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    Re: Lightroom 5 Color Space Discrepancy

    Thanks for posting the answer. Good to know.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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    Round Tuit's Avatar
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    Re: Lightroom 5 Color Space Discrepancy

    I forgot to mention how wonderfully civilized our forum is. I don't know why but we seem to be rather unique. A big thank you to the moderators who set the tone.

    andré

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