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Thread: Merely Maddie - Help requested

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    kdoc856's Avatar
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    Merely Maddie - Help requested

    I've been looking for an opportunity to do a simple, naturally lit portrait of my granddaughter that I could print and frame for my daughter. I recently took advantage of a moment when she was dressing for a ballet recital- snuck her to the next room for a quick shot that I could do in secret without her mom knowing.

    I wanted it as simple, unadorned, minimally posed and expressive of innocence as I could make it. I like it overall, but am debating how to crop. I've included 2 possibilities below. I'd appreciate your opinions, and any further suggestions before I print. Thanks very much.

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    Merely Maddie - Help requested

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    Merely Maddie - Help requested

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    Moderator Manfred M's Avatar
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    Re: Merely Maddie - Help requested

    Kevin - I definitely prefer your first crop as there is little to distract the viewer. I like the way the shadows work as well.

    What does strike me is how muddy the image is - you need to get your black point and white point right as this is critical for B&W images. I'd also brighten up the eyes and eye socket just a bit too.
    Last edited by Manfred M; 23rd June 2016 at 03:19 PM.

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    kdoc856's Avatar
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    Re: Merely Maddie - Help requested

    Thanks, Manfred. Noted, and working on it.

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    Re: Merely Maddie - Help requested

    I assume you have provided ample compensation for such an adorable model. If these were mine, I would use the second crop but I would eliminate at least the tall stem in the plant and perhaps the entire plant.

    I like the overall look of the images. Not every monochrome image has to be made in the high-contrast style. In my mind, there are no "right" black and white points. To change the white and black points from the current settings will change the mood of the image, which is purely an artistic decision.

    To completely change the subject, I just now realized after seeing your name that you are the person who used to post the wonderful images of Hocking Hills State Park. Your images inspired me to go there and my wife and I finally got around to it a few months ago. We had a thoroughly wonderful time!

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    Re: Merely Maddie - Help requested

    Agree with Mike on the crop and the elimination of the plant. Agree with Manfred to a degree on the lighting except I would concentrate any adjustment on the just the face/eyes. It might also be worth taking down the highlights on her left shoulder and ear.

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    Re: Merely Maddie - Help requested

    Hi Kevin,

    I'm another that prefers the looser crop, but not all the plant in the background - I'd clone that all out (ideally).

    Also agree it needs dodging and burning to rectify some lighting issues on various parts of her.

    I'm sure Mom will like it though, even as it is.

    All the best, Dave

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    Re: Merely Maddie - Help requested

    Thanks all, most appreciated.

    Was trying to lose the plant without the trouble of processing it out, but I'm liking the looser crop as well, so will just bite the bullet and make the plant disappear.

    I tried setting the back and white points to be technically correct, but it was not quite the effect I wanted, but I did move a little in that direction.

    The burning/dodging suggestions were quite helpful.

    Mike,
    So glad you enjoyed the Hills. I have a cabin close by and get to go frequently. A very different experience according to season, and recent rainfall. Hope you'll get to come back.

    Cheers, All
    Last edited by kdoc856; 23rd June 2016 at 08:06 PM.

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    Re: Merely Maddie - Help requested

    I agree with the above - the wider crop, clone out the plant, and then (if it were mine, and I wish it was) I would set to work on pp. Slightly dodge the highlights on her skin, lighten the eyes with a curves adjustment and a local high pass filter, burn the highlight on her shoulder, smooth and dodge the eye lines, and then look at black and white points. I'm on my iPad so can't see a histogram, but I'd guess you need another half-stop of exposure overall, and then I'd concentrate on spreading out the edges of the histogram with a curves adjustment.

    Having said all that, it's a beautiful beautiful picture and your daughter is going to love it, whatever you do with it! Well done.

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    Re: Merely Maddie - Help requested

    Although I like the bit of branch in the background and gives a bit more space around her head, the first is better option although as stated the crop is a bit severe. I would prefer cloning out the extras in the second as an alternative composition. Nice capture.

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    Moderator Manfred M's Avatar
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    Re: Merely Maddie - Help requested

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Buckley View Post
    Not every monochrome image has to be made in the high-contrast style. In my mind, there are no "right" black and white points. To change the white and black points from the current settings will change the mood of the image, which is purely an artistic decision.
    Here I will have to disagree, Mike.

    I was first introduced to this requirement in B&W photography when I was in my late teens and was just learning photography and was being mentored by a commercial photographer. Back then I just thought this is the way things are done.

    This DOES NOT affect contrast, just the tonal values. You can still produce both a high key or low key image.

    Last year, when I completed a college level colour correction course, I heard the same thing again from the professor teaching the course. That time I had enough experience to want more than just a simple rule, but also an explanation as to the why this rule was in place and what the purpose was. It appears the rule has two parts:

    1. Every B&W photo needs a black point that has represents a pure black value and a white point that represents a pure white value; and

    2. Every B&W print must be done so that the tonal difference between the black point and white point is 90%.

    The rule came out of the publishing industry and ensured that the print could be reproduced by the printing process. In the past this was apparently the most common reason an image would be rejected on technical grounds.

    The reason behind it is simple, and I'm going to stick with the basic jpeg output, which is commonly used on both our computer screens and by commercial photo printers and publishers. A jpeg can have values that run from 0 to 255 for each colour channel, which gives you those 256 x 256 x 256 = 16.8 million unique colour combinations found in sRGB.

    Go to B&W, you have all colour channels set to the same value which means you only have 256 tonal values ranging from 0 = black to 255 = white, with 254 shades of gray between them. You need all of them to get a good image. On a standard computer screen, you can display every one of those shades of gray.

    Things are a bit more complicated when it comes to prints, in B&W. There are no printers that I am aware of that use white ink, although the higher end photo printers also have gray inks (in my printer Epson calls these Light Black and Light Light Black). Dot pattern and dot size is how they construct the image output. This means once you drop below a certain point, the printer can only produce pure black as output. Sticking with an good quality inkjet printer, I've read / been told a several different things, but what it boils down to is that anything below a value of just under 15 prints to pure black and and value above 240 comes out as pure white (which is where that 90% rule comes from). Note - not a problem on a computer screen, only as a print.

    When I print I will adjust my output in Photoshop to a range of 15 to 245 using the output slider. This ensures you do not lose shadow values on the dark end. On the white end the problem is slightly different. We don't actually want pure white on a print, as this means NO ink is deposited on the paper and if you look at the print on an angle, this area with no ink really stands out and does not look good. With the 240 setting even those specular highlights get a tiny bit of ink deposited by the printer and the surface will match the rest of the print, without the ugly bald spots.

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    kdoc856's Avatar
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    Re: Merely Maddie - Help requested

    Extremely interesting and helpful, Manfred.

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    Re: Merely Maddie - Help requested

    Kevin,
    Number 1 is stunning.
    And as for any more post processing?
    Just leave it alone and print it.
    Robert

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    Re: Merely Maddie - Help requested

    I prefer the first crop, Kevin, even though I think it is a little tight on the top and rhs. In this one, her eyes are much more engaging.

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    Re: Merely Maddie - Help requested

    Manfred,

    Many times you have explained what you have been taught and the logic behind that teaching. There are many widely recognized photographers with their photos hanging in museums and printed in best selling books that are not in keeping with what you have been taught. There are many ways to produce a pleasing photograph, not just the ways that you have been taught.

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    Re: Merely Maddie - Help requested

    Like many of the others I myself like the image to breeze more on the right hand side, along with adding some sharpness to the eyes. What I did was take your first image, added more canvas to the right hand side, then painted out the stuff using the same background colours, easier than dodge and burn. Then added a highpass filter to sharpen the eyes.
    Only a suggestion.

    Cheers: Allan

    Merely Maddie - Help requested

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    Moderator Manfred M's Avatar
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    Re: Merely Maddie - Help requested

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Buckley View Post
    Manfred,

    Many times you have explained what you have been taught and the logic behind that teaching. There are many widely recognized photographers with their photos hanging in museums and printed in best selling books that are not in keeping with what you have been taught. There are many ways to produce a pleasing photograph, not just the ways that you have been taught.
    Mike - I know you and I do not always agree on this.

    Proper exposure in both the captured image and in the final product are required to produce an optimal final product. I have given the technical reasons why this is so and tried to explain how this impacts the final image.

    Two of the very first photographic books I bought (back in the early 1980s) were Ansel Adams "The Negative" and "The Print". These, in addition to my formal and informal photographic education have influenced how I capture and finish images. All I can say is he was absolutely meticulous about these aspects of photography.

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    Re: Merely Maddie - Help requested

    Maddie is an absolutely beautiful young lady... You are lucky we are living in a digital age. If we were still shooting film, I am sure that you would go broke photographing this beauty...

    I preferred this in a pseudo high key rendition. IMO, this puts the emphasis on her remarkable eyes.

    Merely Maddie - Help requested

    Most of my PP was done in NIK Viveza with a brightening of the edges in NIK Silver Efex...

    Note, the rough skin is due to PP on a copied image...

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    Re: Merely Maddie - Help requested

    It's a matter of taste, Manfred. Many people make photos the way you do, which is also the way I mostly make photos. However, many people make photos other ways. Those people are not wrong for doing what they do and we are not right for doing what we do.

    I am presently looking at a fairly expensive book about 13" x 15" that in my mind has some absolutely gorgeous monochrome prints and some of them do not have the characteristics that you write that every black-and-white print must have. The book is so successful that it is in its second printing and includes photos from at least one earlier printing from another book. Everyone involved in the making of the book and the people who bought the book's various editions apparently disagree with you.

    This is my last comment about this topic in this thread. I merely explained to the OP that I liked the overall look of his images and I wasn't expecting to get into a discussion about why I'm wrong to like that look.

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    Re: Merely Maddie - Help requested

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Buckley View Post
    Many people make photos the way you do, which is also the way I mostly make photos.
    Mike, could you point to some pictures you have posted that demonstrate your technique in B&W. I've looked here but cannot find any.
    Last edited by thetraveler; 24th June 2016 at 11:20 AM.

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    Re: Merely Maddie - Help requested

    Lew,

    I'm not going to post my photos because this thread is about Kevin's photos and because mine are already posted. If it's important to you to see mine, simply conduct a search of the threads I've started and review the photos. Many are in color and many are in monochrome.

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