Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 21

Thread: RAW vs jpg conversions

  1. #1

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Athens GR
    Posts
    126
    Real Name
    Patrik

    RAW vs jpg conversions

    This may have been discussed earlier but I have a question to the knowledgeable CiC members.
    I use both RAW and jpg concurrently on my SLR camera ( Canon 7D MarkII ) and when imported to PS Bridge I can see the difference of the jpg conversion from the camera. What puzzles me is not the change/improvement in Saturation and Brightness but also in the Hue. I thought the colours would remain the same. The camera jpgs are set to NEUTRAL .

    I would appreciate an explanation.
    Cheers / Patrik

  2. #2
    Moderator Donald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Glenfarg, Scotland
    Posts
    21,402
    Real Name
    Just add 'MacKenzie'

    Re: RAW vs jpg conversions

    First question Patrik - Is your monitor calibrated and profiled, so that you know your getting 100% colour accuracy?

  3. #3

    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    amsterdam, netherlands
    Posts
    3,182
    Real Name
    George

    Re: RAW vs jpg conversions

    Quote Originally Posted by pat3pee View Post
    This may have been discussed earlier but I have a question to the knowledgeable CiC members.
    I use both RAW and jpg concurrently on my SLR camera ( Canon 7D MarkII ) and when imported to PS Bridge I can see the difference of the jpg conversion from the camera. What puzzles me is not the change/improvement in Saturation and Brightness but also in the Hue. I thought the colours would remain the same. The camera jpgs are set to NEUTRAL .

    I would appreciate an explanation.
    Cheers / Patrik
    See my diagram in the other topic. RAW in LR-5 or in RAW processor?

    George

  4. #4
    dje's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Brisbane Australia
    Posts
    4,636
    Real Name
    Dave Ellis

    Re: RAW vs jpg conversions

    Quote Originally Posted by pat3pee View Post
    This may have been discussed earlier but I have a question to the knowledgeable CiC members.
    I use both RAW and jpg concurrently on my SLR camera ( Canon 7D MarkII ) and when imported to PS Bridge I can see the difference of the jpg conversion from the camera. What puzzles me is not the change/improvement in Saturation and Brightness but also in the Hue. I thought the colours would remain the same. The camera jpgs are set to NEUTRAL .

    I would appreciate an explanation.
    Cheers / Patrik
    Hi Patrik

    There's no reason the colours should be exactly the same. RAW conversion, whether it be in external software or in camera (to produce a jpeg) requires some form of colour calibration for the camera. It could involve a full colour profile or it could be as simple as a set of R,G and B multipliers. It's unlikely the externally applied profile will be exactly the same as the one used in camera.

    In the case of Bridge/ACR/PS, a Standard Adobe colour profile for the camera is applied as default. You can select something different in ACR if you wish. If you go into the camera calibration tab in ACR you will see a list of camera profiles if you click on Camera Profile.

    Dave
    Last edited by dje; 26th May 2016 at 09:53 AM.

  5. #5

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    northern Virginia suburb of Washington, DC
    Posts
    19,064

    Re: RAW vs jpg conversions

    In addition to everything already mentioned, the display on the camera is so small that I wouldn't be able to make the comparisons you're trying to make between the camera and the computer monitor. So, I wouldn't expect my assessment of any perceived differences or similarities to be accurate.

  6. #6

    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    amsterdam, netherlands
    Posts
    3,182
    Real Name
    George

    Re: RAW vs jpg conversions

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Buckley View Post
    In addition to everything already mentioned, the display on the camera is so small that I wouldn't be able to make the comparisons you're trying to make between the camera and the computer monitor. So, I wouldn't expect my assessment of any perceived differences or similarities to be accurate.
    He's comparing them on the pc.

    George

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    96
    Real Name
    Kaare

    Re: RAW vs jpg conversions

    Quote Originally Posted by pat3pee View Post
    What puzzles me is not the change/improvement in Saturation and Brightness but also in the Hue. I thought the colours would remain the same. The camera jpgs are set to NEUTRAL .
    Im not sure if I understood the question right or if I misunderstood something else. But isn't the answer your looking for, that the camera is converting a RAW file to a JPEG, and there by changing the information. Then when you opens it on the computer it read the information differently.

    Hope it makes sense

    /Kaare
    Last edited by kalyt; 26th May 2016 at 02:19 PM.

  8. #8

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    northern Virginia suburb of Washington, DC
    Posts
    19,064

    Re: RAW vs jpg conversions

    Quote Originally Posted by george013 View Post
    He's comparing them on the pc.
    I have read his post again. Though you may be right, his post is not clear about that, at least not to me.

  9. #9
    DanK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    8,625
    Real Name
    Dan

    Re: RAW vs jpg conversions

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Buckley View Post
    I have read his post again. Though you may be right, his post is not clear about that, at least not to me.
    he wrote that it is after conversion in Bridge

  10. #10
    DanK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    8,625
    Real Name
    Dan

    Re: RAW vs jpg conversions

    when imported to PS Bridge I can see the difference of the jpg conversion from the camera. What puzzles me is not the change/improvement in Saturation and Brightness but also in the Hue. I thought the colours would remain the same. The camera jpgs are set to NEUTRAL .
    First, the neutral style doesn't mean "don't do anything". "Faithful" is closer to that. See http://www.canon.co.jp/imaging/pictu.../faithful.html

    But even with the faithful setting, your the raw image has to be rendered. As Dave pointed out, the default in ACR is Adobe's own rendering algorithm, which differs from Canon's.

    It used to be the case that you could download emulations of the Canon picture styles to load into ACR. I don't know if that is still true.

    Donald, I don't think calibration of the monitor would matter for the OP's question. If the rendering were identical, it would appear the same regardless of calibration. What calibration would affect is the appearance of the difference in rendering, if there is one.

  11. #11

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    6,956
    Real Name
    Ted

    Re: RAW vs jpg conversions

    Quote Originally Posted by pat3pee View Post
    This may have been discussed earlier but I have a question to the knowledgeable CiC members.
    I use both RAW and jpg concurrently on my SLR camera ( Canon 7D MarkII ) and when imported to PS Bridge I can see the difference of the jpg conversion from the camera. What puzzles me is not the change/improvement in Saturation and Brightness but also in the Hue. I thought the colours would remain the same. The camera jpgs are set to NEUTRAL .

    I would appreciate an explanation.
    Cheers / Patrik
    On my cameras, the in-camera JPEG converter is different to the JPEG converter in the manufacturer's provided software such as Bridge, or in my case Photo Pro. The in-camera converter has to be fast and only has two color spaces sRGB and Adobe.

    Here's an example from my Sigma DP2s:

    RAW vs jpg conversions

    Quite different to my eye (in-camera JPEG on the right). Sigma in-camera firmware embeds a fine quality full-size JPEG into the raw file; this file can be extracted which is what we see above. I extracted it because that model can not store raw + JPEG separately.

    By the way, on the Sigma SD14 DSLR (I've had 3) the out-of-camera JPEGs are absolutely horrible compared to the same raw converted in Sigma Photo Pro. Long ago, I bought an SD14 to replace a Nikon D50 and sold it within a week for that very reason!
    Last edited by xpatUSA; 26th May 2016 at 02:17 PM.

  12. #12
    Moderator Manfred M's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    21,925
    Real Name
    Manfred Mueller

    Re: RAW vs jpg conversions

    Patrik - part of what you might be seeing with the change in hue is a side effect of "baking in" the white balance in the jpeg file versus what happens in an external raw converter.

    With the raw conversion process you can set the colour temperature (blue - yellow) AND the tint (green - magenta) settings. Unless your raw converter uses exactly the same values as your camera's built-in raw converter, I would expect to see a difference here. In fact getting exactly the same result would be highly unusual.

  13. #13

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    A Pacific Island
    Posts
    941
    Real Name
    Andrew

    Re: RAW vs jpg conversions

    Patrik, here is my interpretation. As already mentioned, Neutral does not mean zero adjustments.

    All the settings in the camera from Neutral to Portrait to Landscape all have settings to make them into a photo you can see. (raw data looks like a scene from The Matrix) Those settings are created by some programming engineer employed by the camera manufacturer. I've read varying opinions on whether or not Canon purposely weights red to emphasize skin tones and Nikon weights green to strengthen landscapes. In some cameras you can also adjust the colours of those basic settings yourself. The fact is, a few different people are involved in making that file that eventually turns into a picture.

    The program you use to turn the data into a visible picture also has software that somebody jammed in a cubicle someplace thought would make photos look good. Using the manufacturers software such as NX2 or DPP will take into account the settings in the camera while others do not. (I don't think so but I've not used them or made comparisons)

    The point is, you are presenting two different data files to Bridge. A neutral and raw that someone coded. That data has to be interpreted again by software to turn it into something you can see. What it does with the differences when interpreting those files depends on what the camera and Bridge programmer a few thousand miles away each had for breakfast that day.

    We won't get into the possibilities of additional file coding when it comes to your video screen or printers. I'm sure you get the idea.

    The problems you will have defining the reasons for the differences in any process are proportional to the square of the number of engineers involved in that process.

    Yes there are obvious differences. They are meant to be. Just learn to work with the one you prefer.
    Last edited by Andrew1; 26th May 2016 at 02:36 PM.

  14. #14
    rpcrowe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Southern California, USA
    Posts
    17,389
    Real Name
    Richard

    Re: RAW vs jpg conversions

    I never shoot JPEG anymore... I did once when I first started digital photography and was actually afraid of using RAW...

    I find it a lot easier to work with RAW and to open the RAW files in Adobe Camera RAW, do some initial post processing in ACR such as leveling horizons, working with perspective, etc,., etc... White balance is also a lot easier to achieve using the eyedropper tool... There are so many facets to camera RAW that it would take more than I prefer to write and you would prefer to read in order to list them all...

    Here is a neat video on Scott Kelby's workflow. Don't worry that the video is aimed at travel photography, it is applicable to any type of photography...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIt1cDw5lLI

    I then work with Photoshop CS6 including my NIK Plug-ins to do everything except cropping and final sharpening. I save the edited file as a Master Image in Photoshop file format PSD. I then close my RAW file without saving any of the edits.

    I don't sent out or give out unprocessed images anymore than I would have given out my negatives in the Dark Ages of film photography

    I can then crop the Master Image to any format or size that I need. It has the majority of editing done on it, so I don't have to reinvent the wheel every time I want an image for printing or posting on the Internet. I often have uses for my images in various formats and sizes. I always have a permanent RAW file and a permanent master image to fall back upon.

    Unless I wanted just to use the image without any edits (WHICH I VERY SELDOM DO) the in-camera JPEG image is of no use to me.
    Last edited by rpcrowe; 26th May 2016 at 07:54 PM.

  15. #15

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    6,956
    Real Name
    Ted

    Re: RAW vs jpg conversions

    Quote Originally Posted by pat3pee View Post
    This may have been discussed earlier but I have a question to the knowledgeable CiC members.
    I use both RAW and jpg concurrently on my SLR camera ( Canon 7D MarkII ) and when imported to PS Bridge I can see the difference of the jpg conversion from the camera. What puzzles me is not the change/improvement in Saturation and Brightness but also in the Hue. I thought the colours would remain the same. The camera jpgs are set to NEUTRAL .
    Do you use a color-checker card, like the 24-patch Macbeth?

    If so, you could post two JPEG shots here and I have the means to analyze the differences between them and also to tell you which image is more color-accurate. I would only analyze the six patches B,G,R,Y,M,C.

    Probably you know that "color" is defined by both Hue and Chroma (and Lightness if we're feeling picky), not just "hue". So what I would be doing is comparing hue and chroma in CIELAB color space.
    Last edited by xpatUSA; 26th May 2016 at 03:18 PM.

  16. #16

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Athens GR
    Posts
    126
    Real Name
    Patrik

    Re: RAW vs jpg conversions

    Sorry I have been away for the day and now see all the great questions and advice. Shall shortly answer them and since I usually don't use jpg files it was just a point of interest. Below you will see a picture of a bougainvillea saved in photoshop as jpg files and hopefully you can spot the color shift.

    * No I have not " properly" calibrated and profiled my monitor
    * I have not yet ( will do shortly) calibrated this camera for its ACR profile
    * Yes both pictures are shown on the PC screen
    * It seems that this camera's RAW converter is showing too much blue and maybe this explains why the jpg picture shows a warmer red color ?
    * The color Mode for both images is Adobe RGB
    * I only use jpg files for immediate posting where quality is not important. Otherwise I only develop the RAW images and send them to the web or for printing as corrected jpg files.
    * No I did not use color checker card ( laziness since I have the card )

    RAW vs jpg conversions


    RAW vs jpg conversions



    and now seeing the two pics I am sending they look just like the original jpg image !!! Is this because I saved the RAW image in Photoshop to jpg ? Any how the RAW colors were more magenta bluish even if not much color shift +++ Quite confused.

  17. #17

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    6,956
    Real Name
    Ted

    Re: RAW vs jpg conversions

    Quote Originally Posted by pat3pee View Post
    Below you will see a picture of a bougainvillea saved in photoshop as jpg files and hopefully you can spot the color shift.
    * No I did not use color checker card ( laziness since I have the card )

    RAW vs jpg conversions


    RAW vs jpg conversions



    and now seeing the two pics I am sending they look just like the original jpg image !!! Is this because I saved the RAW image in Photoshop to jpg ? Any how the RAW colors were more magenta bluish even if not much color shift +++ Quite confused.
    Quite a puzzle that, eh?

    I'm sure that the Canonistas or Photo-shoppers here will be along with the answer direckly.

    Although we know what you probably mean by "RAW colors" it is not a strictly correct term. Perhaps you should say "review image colors".

    Be that as it may, I downloaded your pics and analyzed three areas, JPEG vs "RAW":

    A red petal has 8% more chroma and 10 degrees hue shift toward yellow.
    The sky has 3% less chroma and 2 deg hue shift toward cyan.
    A leaf has 5% less chroma and 4 deg hue shift toward yellow.

    Not enough difference to write home about, I reckon, as you've said.

    So, as you suspect, something else is going on - possibly to do with the dreaded color-management
    Last edited by xpatUSA; 26th May 2016 at 08:31 PM.

  18. #18

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Tulsa, OK
    Posts
    468
    Real Name
    Larry Saideman

    Re: RAW vs jpg conversions

    I still see a difference between the two. You say you used a neutral picture control in camera but I am not clear what picture control you used in Adobe. Each picture control in Adobe will provide a certain contrast and color palette so even the neutral Adobe picture control will look different from your Canon neutral picture control. If you are using Adobe's default pc than you are using Adobe Standard which I do not use at all anymore. I tend to use portrait which has less contrast and brighter highlights--more like your jpeg version. If you prefer the Canon neutral picture control and want to use Adobe, you are going to have to find your own formula combining a picture control and the values of other settings. I let go of my Nikon colors and just work with what I can get out of Adobe.

    Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

  19. #19

    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    amsterdam, netherlands
    Posts
    3,182
    Real Name
    George

    Re: RAW vs jpg conversions

    Quote Originally Posted by Brev00 View Post
    I still see a difference between the two. You say you used a neutral picture control in camera but I am not clear what picture control you used in Adobe. Each picture control in Adobe will provide a certain contrast and color palette so even the neutral Adobe picture control will look different from your Canon neutral picture control. If you are using Adobe's default pc than you are using Adobe Standard which I do not use at all anymore. I tend to use portrait which has less contrast and brighter highlights--more like your jpeg version. If you prefer the Canon neutral picture control and want to use Adobe, you are going to have to find your own formula combining a picture control and the values of other settings. I let go of my Nikon colors and just work with what I can get out of Adobe.

    Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
    In general, from mine diagram, if converter and/or settings are different than the result is different. You may add compression to that.

    George

  20. #20

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Athens GR
    Posts
    126
    Real Name
    Patrik

    Re: RAW vs jpg conversions

    In reply to George, as said before, I have not made a camera calibration for ACR converter yet so yes I was using Adobe Standard profile for this shot.
    Patrik

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •