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Thread: I am going back to RAW & manual.

  1. #41
    xpatUSA's Avatar
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    Re: I am going back to RAW & manual.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver View Post
    Ted - I shot on manual for years - through the 1970s for sure, because that what cameras did back then. I never needed a handheld reflective meter because all of my cameras had a built in light meter, so I effectively grew up using match the needle. No big deal. My next camera (the one I used right up to going digital) had aperture priority automation only so for the 20% of the shots that I do where selecting shutter speed was the driver, I continued to shoot manual right into 2010. No big deal. The only point I was trying to make, and this was really addressed at Brian, was the same as George's point - FROM AN IMAGE CAPTURE POINT THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN CREATIVE POTENTIAL OF USING EITHER SHUTTER PRIORITY OR APERTURE PRIORITY VERSUS FULLY MANUAL. Brian tells us that his MS is one of the main reasons he has inconsistent results, so it makes no sense to me not to use the automation potential in his camera to help work around his disability.

    I totally agree that there are instances where highlight clipping is unavoidable; specular highlights and shooting directly into a bright light source, but not really relevant to what i was writing.

    The ETTR discussion was part of a view as to how someone who was shooting SOOC jpeg would look at over and under exposure differently than someone shooting raw. An ETTR image would look overexposed in a SOOC jpeg. I can't really see how someone would shoot ETTR in an scene that included specular highlights or a bright light source, as the histogram is already as far to the right as it can be.

    With respect to EC staying in place until it is turned off, every camera that I have ever owned worked that way as well. forgetting to turn it off is no different than forgetting to turn off exposure bracketing, burst mode, self-timer mode or a host of other features that are set in camera. I generally turn these types of features off right after shooting, but do screw up occasionally. That's why I look at my histogram after taking my first shot or two; that way I usually catch my screw ups fairly quickly.

    Lots of caps and bold text, so I have obviously misunderstood the post.

    Apologies
    Last edited by xpatUSA; 9th February 2016 at 10:54 AM.

  2. #42
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    Re: I am going back to RAW & manual.

    Quote Originally Posted by xpatUSA View Post
    Welcome back to the club, Brian!

    Take no notice of they who can not understand why

    However, I've been lately buying lenses with optical stabilization (another form of the equipment doing everything for you) as my old hands get shakier with time; also using the tripod more (another artificial aid) . . . bloody nuisance though it is . . . .
    Absolutely. There comes a time when our bodies demand a reassessment of the situation.

  3. #43

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    Re: I am going back to RAW & manual.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver View Post
    Dan most of the comments I have read here have little to do with judging but a lot to do with the following statement that Brian made:...
    Sorry, Manfred. In the last paragraph of my post intended to be sufficiently sarcastic to make it obvious that it was an attempt to insert a bit of comic relief. Epic fail I guess

    It does make me crazy that Nikon moves buttons around...

  4. #44
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    Re: I am going back to RAW & manual.

    This is a fascinating discussion. I certainly did not expect such an outpouring of opinions. And allow me also to say that each and every one is a valid opinion. We all have our own ways to enjoy this hobby/passion and that is how it should be.

    I feel that I should address one of Grumpies puzzlements.

    He does not understand how someone with M.S. could decide not to use all of the automation built into any modern camera to consistently produce the best results.

    The answer is that he is right it doesn't make sense because the camera is a well designed machine that works well and will produce great shots.

    But the camera cannot produce the passion and heart of Daisy Mae or Donald to name but two of the artists found within this group.

    This may be heresy but I am not all that interested in technical perfection. Which is not to say that i don't need a good grounding in technique. I do.

    For me the best way to get that grounding is by shooting manual RAW.

    Manual raw also allows me the greatest leeway in pp.

    Finally every time I manually adjust a setting I get to reclaim a piece of the freedom that time and circumstances take from all of us.

    Final thought?

    The way I shoot is only right for me. I make no claims on how others should shoot. Hopefully as I mature in this passion my shooting technique will change. So in the future if i should proudly proclaim Aperture priority and film is for me.... such is life.

  5. #45
    Administrator Manfred M's Avatar
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    Re: I am going back to RAW & manual.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBW View Post

    Manual raw also allows me the greatest leeway in pp.

    That is an incorrect assumption. A properly exposed raw provides that greatest leeway in pp. It doesn't matter how the file was created; any mode will do from manual to the fully automatic program mode. A poorly exposed raw, which is more likely to occur when shooting in manual mode, is going to provide less leeway in PP.

  6. #46
    JBW's Avatar
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    Re: I am going back to RAW & manual.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver View Post
    That is an incorrect assumption. A properly exposed raw provides that greatest leeway in pp. It doesn't matter how the file was created; any mode will do from manual to the fully automatic program mode. A poorly exposed raw, which is more likely to occur when shooting in manual mode, is going to provide less leeway in PP.
    fair enough.

  7. #47

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    Re: I am going back to RAW & manual.

    This cap and trade thing ain't free. You want my carbon credits, you have to pay me for them. Or get me the D500. One or the other.

  8. #48
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    Re: I am going back to RAW & manual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brev00 View Post
    This cap and trade thing ain't free. You want my carbon credits, you have to pay me for them. Or get me the D500. One or the other.
    Sorry I tried to get you are D500 but they did not have any in stock. Alas my memory is so bad that in few minutes I will have forgotten all about buying a? - Oh dear what a pity I can't remember a thing.

  9. #49

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    Re: I am going back to RAW & manual.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBW View Post
    .....
    Manual raw also allows me the greatest leeway in pp.
    ......
    Brian,

    The same quote as Manfred.
    I agree RAW gives you the greatest leeway in PP. Manual doesn't give you any thing more than the A or S mode.
    What you're doing in manual is seperating the "dictatorship" of the lightmeter over the settings. You have to make a choice for a aperture, once you did you have to select an appropriate shutterspeed. Based on that same lightmeter it gives the same result as in half automate.
    There are examples when you don't want to use the lightmeter: in the studio maybe or when you want to use incident light as basis for your exposure settings. Every year there is in Amsterdam the Gay Canal Parade, many boats going through the canals. One is white and another is black. Nearly impossible to shoot with the reflective lightmeter. So I set it on manual and choice a setting that is somewhere ok for the incident light. As long the wheather doesn't change it's ok. Use the histogram to check if it's still ok.

    I don't say one should do this or that. Everybody creates his own habits. But don't say it's better or worse. Use the right arguments.

    For the others, there is another way to correct the settings in half automate with Nikon. I've a D700 and when shooting in the A-mode I can correct the exposure with a wheel. Difference with the EV button is that this setting disappears when the camera is going to sleep or turned off.

    George

  10. #50
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    Re: I am going back to RAW & manual.

    Brian, You posted "But they were not my shots. so I am back to manual and RAW. The shots won't be as consistent, possibly not even as good, but they will be mine."

    I think that many folks are under the impression that when they use one of the semi-auto modes (aperture priority, shutter priority or programmed) that they have to accept whatever the camera selects as their shooting parameters.

    This is certainly not the case in working with Canon DSLR cameras and I am pretty certain that this is not the case in most (probably all) other brands.

    When I shoot in these semi-automatic modes (not in full-auto or that strange mode Canon calls "Creative Auto") it is very easy o shift the f/stop or shutter speed and equally easy to shift the entire exposure up or down. It is particularly easy to shift parameters using the two dial system of the Canon Non-Rebel DSLR cameras.

    I don't feel that the images I shoot using any of the three semi-automatic modes are any the less "my images" than those I shoot in manual mode.

    I use manual mode when I want to lock in the exposure such as when I shoot for panos. I also use manual mode when I am shooting with studio strobes or when I am using a hand held meter for exposure evaluation. Occasionally, I will combine shooting with the camera exposure on manual and my flash exposure on TTL. I will often shoot manual when I want to use a variable density filter (not a GND) and I will sometimes shoot manual when doing night shots, especially when I want to capture fireworks.
    Last edited by rpcrowe; 8th February 2016 at 04:36 PM.

  11. #51
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    Re: I am going back to RAW & manual.

    One of the things I love about my X-T1 and one of the deciding factors when buying it is the traditional dial layout.

    My usual shooting has the ISO set to whatever I feel I'll need - I pick an aperture from the ring round the lens - let the camera set the shutter speed suggested by the meter then use the very well placed and very tactile exposure comp dial to tweak it. This is fast, straight forward and I have whatever level of control I need with absolute simplicity.

    I am going back to RAW & manual.

  12. #52
    rpcrowe's Avatar
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    Re: I am going back to RAW & manual.

    I do like that button and dial system. It is reminiscent of many film cameras...
    Last edited by rpcrowe; 8th February 2016 at 08:25 PM.

  13. #53
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    Re: I am going back to RAW & manual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Pearl View Post
    One of the things I love about my X-T1 and one of the deciding factors when buying it is the traditional dial layout.

    My usual shooting has the ISO set to whatever I feel I'll need - I pick an aperture from the ring round the lens - let the camera set the shutter speed suggested by the meter then use the very well placed and very tactile exposure comp dial to tweak it. This is fast, straight forward and I have whatever level of control I need with absolute simplicity.

    I am going back to RAW & manual.
    Interesting. This is almost identical to the controls on the tiny Lumix LX100 I recently purchased to keep with me when I don't want to lug my main cameras. The aperture, shutter speed, and EC dials are essentially identical, but the LX100 has the ISO controls on a menu.

    I purchased it in part because of these controls. I find this much faster and less awkward than digging through menus on a small camera. However, I don't find it easier or faster than the controls on my 5DIII, which are not at all retro. In fact, I find the 5DIII faster in some cases. For example, in manual mode, shutter speed is on one dial and aperture is on the other, and you don't have to move your hands or camera from shooting position to get to them. But whatever works...

  14. #54
    Moderator Dave Humphries's Avatar
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    Re: I am going back to RAW & manual.

    Quote Originally Posted by rpcrowe View Post
    I do like that button and dial system. ~
    I agree; everything you could need is to hand.

  15. #55
    JBW's Avatar
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    Re: I am going back to RAW & manual.

    Quote Originally Posted by rpcrowe View Post
    Brian, You posted "But they were not my shots. so I am back to manual and RAW. The shots won't be as consistent, possibly not even as good, but they will be mine."

    I think that many folks are under the impression that when they use one of the semi-auto modes (aperture priority, shutter priority or programmed) that they have to accept whatever the camera selects as their shooting parameters.

    This is certainly not the case in working with Canon DSLR cameras and I am pretty certain that this is not the case in most (probably all) other brands.

    When I shoot in these semi-automatic modes (not in full-auto or that strange mode Canon calls "Creative Auto") it is very easy o shift the f/stop or shutter speed and equally easy to shift the entire exposure up or down. It is particularly easy to shift parameters using the two dial system of the Canon Non-Rebel DSLR cameras.

    I don't feel that the images I shoot using any of the three semi-automatic modes are any the less "my images" than those I shoot in manual mode.

    I use manual mode when I want to lock in the exposure such as when I shoot for panos. I also use manual mode when I am shooting with studio strobes or when I am using a hand held meter for exposure evaluation. Occasionally, I will combine shooting with the camera exposure on manual and my flash exposure on TTL. I will often shoot manual when I want to use a variable density filter (not a GND) and I will sometimes shoot manual when doing night shots, especially when I want to capture fireworks.
    I understand what you are saying. And you are right in every mode there are things I can play with and things I can't. But for now, and I stress for now, I need as many options as possible in my shooting. To my way of thinking this means manual and RAW. I went back and tried Aperture Priority in RAW yesterday but it was in my present mind set quite limiting.
    B.

  16. #56
    Administrator Manfred M's Avatar
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    Re: I am going back to RAW & manual.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBW View Post
    I went back and tried Aperture Priority in RAW yesterday but it was in my present mind set quite limiting..
    Interesting comment Brian. Could you please explain exactly why you found it limiting?

  17. #57
    JBW's Avatar
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    Re: I am going back to RAW & manual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Pearl View Post
    One of the things I love about my X-T1 and one of the deciding factors when buying it is the traditional dial layout.

    My usual shooting has the ISO set to whatever I feel I'll need - I pick an aperture from the ring round the lens - let the camera set the shutter speed suggested by the meter then use the very well placed and very tactile exposure comp dial to tweak it. This is fast, straight forward and I have whatever level of control I need with absolute simplicity.

    I am going back to RAW & manual.
    Now here you have it ladies and gentlemen, he has the level of control he needs in a way he likes it. Which is pretty much the idea that started this thread.

  18. #58
    JBW's Avatar
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    Re: I am going back to RAW & manual.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver View Post
    Interesting comment Brian. Could you please explain exactly why you found it limiting?
    I can try. Everything moved in lockstep. The camera is designed to shoot within a given set of parameters in a given mode and to maintain those parameters to produce a specific type of shot. When I make one adjustment everything else moves to compensate.

    In manual there are still interconnections but not as many. I have fewer limitations.

    Does that explanation work for you?
    B.

  19. #59
    Administrator Manfred M's Avatar
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    Re: I am going back to RAW & manual.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBW View Post
    I can try. Everything moved in lockstep. The camera is designed to shoot within a given set of parameters in a given mode and to maintain those parameters to produce a specific type of shot. When I make one adjustment everything else moves to compensate.

    In manual there are still interconnections but not as many. I have fewer limitations.

    Does that explanation work for you?
    B.
    In the automated modes did you set the ISO manually or are you running on auto-ISO?

    The reason I ask (and the reason you got some of the responses from me and others on this thread) is that what you are saying simply is not correct. Everything else does not move; depending on how you have set up your camera one or two parameters move, no more. Not only that they have to move.

    To get the "correcct" exposure; you need to balance off three things, ISO, shutter speed and aperture. It doesn't matter whether you shoot 100% manual or in one of the automated modes. Adjust one of these, and one or both of the others have to move to keep the exposure correct. In my case, I generally shoot with a fixed ISO (I set it as low as I can to maximize image quality; dynamic range and colour depth decreases whenever you increase ISO and noise increases as ISO increases).

    So if you shoot like I do and fix the ISO, every time I stop down 1 full stop, my camera has to double the shutter speed to keep the exposure triangle in balance. It doesn't matter if you do this by letting the camera calculate the new shutter speed or you set it manually, the two results must be identical to ensure that the exposure does not change.

    The other thing that is critical is that you need a good exposure so that you can build a good image in post production with the maximum amount of useable data. To use an analogy of building a house. The foundation must be able to support the house. No matter how well the house is built, if the foundation is not good, the house will have problems. Think of the raw data as the foundation of your image. You can do a lot of things in PP, but the data in the file you are using needs to be as good as you can make it.

  20. #60
    Black Pearl's Avatar
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    Re: I am going back to RAW & manual.

    Quote Originally Posted by DanK View Post
    Interesting.However, I don't find it easier or faster than the controls on my 5DIII, which are not at all retro. In fact, I find the 5DIII faster in some cases. For example, in manual mode, shutter speed is on one dial and aperture is on the other, and you don't have to move your hands or camera from shooting position to get to them. But whatever works...
    ....and there is the genius of this camera. Set the lens to A, set the shutter dial to T and you can use the front and rear dials on the body in exactly the same way as a typical Canon/Nikon. You can do these separately too so (for example) have apertures on the lens still but shutter speeds on either of the body dials.

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