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Thread: Help me! Color management...

  1. #1

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    Help me! Color management...

    ***I read the picture-posting tutorial in the Welcome thread but none of that is working for me; I can't figure out how to get clickable thumbnails, but the links should work***

    Hello everybody,
    I have spent days scouring the internet for information, and I have read and learned a LOT about color management. I have worked myself into despair endlessly searching old forum threads, educating myself on sites like this one, and trying but failing to fix my problem on my own. I've found a number of similar anecdotes but nothing exactly the same, and none of the 'fixes' these people found will work for me. This problem has disrupted my workflow, and I really need to find a fix. I sincerely hope somebody can help. I apologize for what will be a long post, but it is necessary to describe my problem.

    First of all, here is a general description of my typical workflow and how things have worked for me in the past:
    - Shoot in RAW (.NEF from Nikon), import to Lightroom 4.3, edit to taste
    - Export to jpeg in sRGB color space (never aRGB unless it's going to Photoshop first)
    -Sometimes use Photoshop CS6 to fix things/resize/sharpen, but always save as sRGB.

    I had calibrated my monitor (albeit by eye) well enough such that my digital productions matched the print productions from MPix Pro (photo lab associated with Zenfolio) to my satisfaction. Also, surprisingly enough, the pictures look relatively the same whether viewed in Lightroom, Photoshop, Windows Picture Viewer, Infranview, any number of web browsers (chrome, FF, IE). Basically anywhere I viewed the pictures, I was happy enough with the color representation even if there may have been insignificant variations.
    At the time I was using a Dell U2713HM monitor: Specs
    I'm running 64-bit Win8.1 with an AMD Radeon HD 7570 GPU.

    The Problem Begins

    The Dell U2713HM developed some dead pixels in the lower left, so Dell agreed to send a refurbished replacement. The monitor they sent was in fact a U2713Hb (they no longer make the HM). Upon plugging it in, I had an immediate problem. Talked to Dell support, they thought it was a monitor issue, so they replaced it again. With the second replacement, I have the exact same problem. I'm starting to think it's not faulty hardware in the monitor.

    The problem:
    Every picture I had previously imported and developed in Lightroom is now much duller, lacking contrast and saturation across the entire tonal range when viewed in Lightroom and in some other applications, but not all.

    Here is a screengrab to show the picture in Lightroom (left) as compared to when displayed on the desktop background (right).
    http://www.imagebam.com/image/5827bc454118561

    The Lightroom view appears wrong (dull, muted colors) whereas the sRGB jpeg version I exported from that developed state in LR appears fine while viewed on desktop background. Here is a 1680p version of the jpeg, if anybody wants to look at it/experiment:

    http://www.imagebam.com/image/378400454122072

    If I open that jpeg in Windows Picture Viewer, it looks just as dull as Lightroom. Here is a list of applications I have tested, and how the picture appears there:

    Lightroom 4.3 - dull
    Photoshop CS6 - dull
    Windows Picture Viewer - dull
    Windows Picture Viewer in full screen slideshow mode - normal
    Infranview (v. 4.40) - normal
    Paint - normal
    Applied to desktop background - normal

    Uploading the picture to Facebook & viewing it --OR-- dragging the picture into a new tab of the following web browsers results in the same results:

    Comodo Icedragon (version 42.0.0.25) - dull, just like LR, PS & WPV
    Opera (version 34.0.2036.25) -- normal
    Chrome (version 47.0.2526.106 m) - normal
    IE (version 11.0.9600.18125) - normal
    Firefox (version 38.0.5) - normal
    *All browsers are most recent versions except Firefox

    All these browsers are color managed, according to this test: http://www.gballard.net/psd/go_live_...profiles.html#

    So why the difference with Comodo?

    Having printed plenty of images with good consistency from MPix Pro on my previous setup, I am confident that sRGB jpegs I have from all my previous shoots are not messed up. The RAW files I created those jpegs from were edited to a proper level in Lightroom, exported in sRGB, and have printed as expected. What is messed up is how the jpegs (and the RAW versions in LR) are being displayed. If I were to edit to the proper point in Lightroom now, it would be drastically garish in print and in multiple web browsers.

    This is the point where someone might say, "You're viewing in aRGB and exporting to sRGB. Of course it will look different." Sure they may have slight differences because of the smaller color space, but it does not account for the remarkable difference I am seeing, and it does nothing to explain why previous to this new monitor, my colors appeared consistent across all my applications. Besides, how on Earth could photographers be expected to predict while they're editing how such a wild shift in appearance will translate to sRGB? It's just not feasible.

    It should also be known that I have a secondary display, a Dell E207WFP. I have the same browser issues, but a somewhat reverse issue in Lightroom where the pictures in the develop module and in WPV look more garish with awful dithering than those on the desktop background or viewed in Infranview.

    Here is a comparison showing the dithering in Lightroom on the E207WFP:
    http://www.imagebam.com/image/6d8188454132030
    versus the same rock face displayed on the U2713H (in LR):
    http://www.imagebam.com/image/d6ac98454132041]

    Failed Fixes

    -I purchased an i1 Display Pro from X-Rite and have created ICCv2 (yes, v2) color profiles for each monitor and assigned them as the default for each device.
    http://www.imagebam.com/image/1cfc85454129587
    http://www.imagebam.com/image/9fa1a9454129603
    http://www.imagebam.com/image/4ffb07454129589
    --Is there perhaps something wrong in the settings of the last picture that's causing all this trouble?

    -I updated my GPU to the latest drivers; no change. Here is current info:
    http://www.imagebam.com/image/b80ab9454118565
    http://www.imagebam.com/image/5d5900454118567

    -All possibly relevant optional updates from Windows have been installed.

    Summary
    There are color inconsistencies I just cannot explain, and I cannot work until this is resolved.

    I want to Upgrade to Adobe CC for Photographers (LR & PS) but I don't want to do it before I fix this issue. Does anyone think that upgrading would fix the issue? It seems to me after all my reading that it would not. I would like to see the input of the knowledgeable members here before I make my next move.

    Thank you for reading, and I hope you can help.
    Bryan

    PS. Dell support is impossible. They even lost the service tag for my current monitor, so since it "does not exist," they cannot help me. Plus, the last two times I explained the problem, they said it's a problem with the monitor and agreed to replace it. Obviously this is not working.
    Last edited by Keen Ai; 23rd December 2015 at 03:11 PM. Reason: messed up pic format

  2. #2

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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Let me preface this by saying that your problem is confusing to me as I use but one monitor,
    one browser, and one PP software (LR/PS). Obviously, I have no clue as to what you see,
    regarding my images, in another browser and/or on another monitor.
    Controlling what others see would, at best, be an exercise in futility.

    You indicate that your problems began with that replacement Dell monitor and that support is not
    forthcoming...I might submit that your problem lies there...a more aggressive attitude toward their
    customer service would be the only advice that I could offer.

  3. #3
    Shadowman's Avatar
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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    The HB monitor has an anti-glare coating, does the HM monitor have the same?

  4. #4

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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowman View Post
    The HB monitor has an anti-glare coating, does the HM monitor have the same?
    The HM monitor had "Anti glare with hard coat 3H "

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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Just a few casual thoughts.

    Are you calibrating these monitors before use? The last new monitor which I purchased had me very disappointed, even when using the Photo default settings. But after some rather basic calibration it was much more realistic. A 'proper' calibration device is the real answer though.

    Why are you outputting your images as Jpeg? This format can lose quite a bit of quality depending on the settings. For normal storage I use the Adobe Psd format although Tiff is also excellent although files are a bit larger. Jpeg is obviously necessary for internet use although I do sometimes notice some loss of quality and colour. Typical Jpeg setting for me (internet use) would be 80% (level 10) quality.

    Your Raw adjustment does appear a little 'odd' and rather extreme compared with what I would use. For example, you have rather high settings for contrast, brightness, saturation, etc but the basic Exposure setting is at 0.

    When an image needs some special treatment I tend to create two, or more, different conversions with suitable settings then combine the layers with masks rather than attempting to force a tricky scene with extreme adjustments.

    Perhaps showing a straight from camera image may be helpful for members to compare how they would tweak that scene.

    Incidentally, I never use Lightroom at all. From ACR I go straight to the main editor in CC or CS6 etc and do all my final adjustments there. But having the additional Bridge software can be useful.

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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff F View Post
    Just a few casual thoughts.
    Geoff, I appreciate the time you took to give your thoughts. However, even if you would use a different general workflow than me, that does not take away from the fact that I have a problem that results in different color representation on the same monitor, with the same picture. If I followed the steps you're following, I would have the exact same problems, I can guarantee it.

    And yes, the monitors are calibrated with an i1Display Pro from X-rite, as stated in the original post.

  7. #7

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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    I have a problem that results in different color representation on the same monitor, with the same picture
    Assuming the exact same workflow in that scenario, it does sound inconceivable...

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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Quote Originally Posted by Keen Ai View Post
    Geoff, I appreciate the time you took to give your thoughts. However, even if you would use a different general workflow than me, that does not take away from the fact that I have a problem that results in different color representation on the same monitor, with the same picture. If I followed the steps you're following, I would have the exact same problems, I can guarantee it.

    And yes, the monitors are calibrated with an i1Display Pro from X-rite, as stated in the original post.

    'kin'-A, Bryan (yep, I got it) . . .

    I'm not sure that color problems like you describe can be explained away by the standard "did you calibrate your monitor" caveat.

    But, sorry, the OP is way over my head . . .
    Last edited by xpatUSA; 24th December 2015 at 01:17 AM.

  9. #9
    Administrator Manfred M's Avatar
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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Hi Bryan - welcome to CiC. If I were to take a high level guess, this problem looks like the images have the incorrect colour profile assigned to them. How do you convert these images to sRGB?

    Your new screen is AdobeRGB compliant, whereas both your old screen and your secondary screen are sRGB screens. Seeing different results like you are suggests that display software is mapping the colours incorrectly. Both should look fairly close on both screens if the mappings are happening correctly. I use a AdobeRGB screen as my main working screen and an sRGB screen as my secondary screen.

    You also have a very strange workflow. I would not recommend working in a low gamut colour space like sRGB at all. The only time I output sRGB files is the final step in preparing to post an image on the internet or to send it off to a commercial (non-custom) photo printer. Virtually all of my RAW files are converted to the ProPhoto colour space before I work them. As I recall, this is Lightrooms default colour space.

    What do the images look like on each of the screens if you shoot and edit a jpeg, rather than a raw file? It might take us a bit of experimentation to nail down what is happening to your shots. I suspect that the issue is workflow, rather than hardware related.
    Last edited by Manfred M; 24th December 2015 at 02:26 AM. Reason: Added clarification

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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver View Post
    You also have a very strange workflow. I would not recommend working in a low gamut colour space like sRGB at all.
    Manfred, are you sure you meant that as it sounds?

  11. #11
    Administrator Manfred M's Avatar
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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Quote Originally Posted by xpatUSA View Post
    Manfred, are you sure you meant that as it sounds?
    In the context of how Bryan is working, yes I did mean it. Converting raw to sRGB throws out roughly 2/3 of the colour data the camera is capable of capturing. If you go through some of the images he has linked to, I definitely see some artifacts that I would not expect to see if the edits were done in a wider gamut colour space. Both ProPhoto and AdobeRGB are better choices.

    As a general statement what I wrote is not correct. For example, if I received a jpeg file or image that was using the sRGB colour space, then yes, I would definitely continue to use that colour space. There is no advantage to using a wider gamut colour space in that circumstance. Converting an image to a narrower gamut colour space is a "one way" street; there is no advantage to upgrading it to a wider gamut colour space after all that colour data has been removed.

  12. #12
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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Quote Originally Posted by Keen Ai View Post
    I had calibrated my monitor (albeit by eye) well enough such that my digital productions matched the print productions from MPix Pro (photo lab associated with Zenfolio) to my satisfaction.
    Hi Bryan

    I'm no expert on CM and I don't print but your statement above rings some alarm bells. I don't think you can really calibrate your monitor for true colour "by eye" nor do I think you should be adjusting your monitor so that it matches the print results you get from a particular printer. It's reasonable to adjust the editing of the images differently for printing but not by adjusting the monitor. I may misunderstand what you are saying of course. If you've edited your images whilst viewing with an incorrectly calibrated monitor, they will look different with a properly calibrated monitor.

    The monitor profiles you've generated with your i1 Display Pro should be reliable if they have been done correctly. I use a Spyder so I can't comment on the i1 but it would be worth checking your procedure carefuly, including things such as specifying the correct gamma.

    Did you get an icc profile for the new Dell monitor? It would be on the software/drivers disk that comes with the monitor. If so, it would be worth trying this profile instead of your own generated profile. I can't see one in your list under that device but it may not have been installed.

    Don't know whether this will help, I'm clutching at straws a bit

    Oh and one other suggestion - try editing one of your images from scratch using the new monitor and your XRite profile, and the see how consistent it is between software applications.
    Dave
    Last edited by dje; 24th December 2015 at 05:27 AM.

  13. #13
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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Quite a lot to consider in the OP, but a few comments to make none the less.

    Your images have been produced using an uncalibrated and unprofiled monitor. While you may be happy with the results I believe you are now seeing the results of not calibrating and profiling correctly. In other words you cannot achieve colour consistency. These images, to me, would not be a valid baseline for any further comparisons using other monitors or programs.

    The other point to consider is that although you may be using colour managed programs for viewing the images the colour management engines and profiles being using may not be the same.

    Windows native programs tend to use the MS colour engine and often use the default sRGB colour space as the profile for your monitor. Photoshop for example, uses the Adobe CM engine and will use your monitor profile, if setup correctly, obtained from correct profiling. In addition Rendering Intents may well be different. Windows may well be using Perceptual - which can result in colour shifts, whereas Adobe use Relative for display purposes which clip colours but don't really shift them.

    I would be interested to see one of your original images if possible because the links only point to images which have no colour profile information. Is it possible to post an original RAW file + XMP and the resulting JPEG?

  14. #14
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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver View Post
    In the context of how Bryan is working, yes I did mean it. Converting raw to sRGB throws out roughly 2/3 of the colour data the camera is capable of capturing.
    I believe we've had a similar discussion in the past and were not able to agree because of how we interpreted "the colour data". If that means the extent of the gamut then you are correct of course for IR shots (with a converted camera) or highly saturated flower shots, but incorrect for a normal shot of a black cat on a gray blanket? . . . with it's eyes closed !!

    If you go through some of the images he has linked to, I definitely see some artifacts that I would not expect to see if the edits were done in a wider gamut colour space. Both ProPhoto and AdobeRGB are better choices.
    Agreed, especially for heavy editing.

    As a general statement what I wrote is not correct. For example, if I received a jpeg file or image that was using the sRGB colour space, then yes, I would definitely continue to use that colour space. There is no advantage to using a wider gamut colour space in that circumstance.
    Even for heavy adjustments (those that go out of and back into sRGB gamut)?

    Converting an image to a narrower gamut colour space is a "one way" street; there is no advantage to upgrading it to a wider gamut colour space after all that colour data has been removed.
    Could we also say "clipped at the gamut boundary" for removal of color data?

  15. #15

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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver View Post
    How do you convert these images to sRGB?

    Your new screen is AdobeRGB compliant, whereas both your old screen and your secondary screen are sRGB screens.

    You also have a very strange workflow. I would not recommend working in a low gamut colour space like sRGB at all.

    What do the images look like on each of the screens if you shoot and edit a jpeg, rather than a raw file? It might take us a bit of experimentation to nail down what is happening to your shots. I suspect that the issue is workflow, rather than hardware related.
    Hey Grumpy -- let me respond to your points:
    1) Thanks for pointing out the gamut differences between the old monitor and my replacement, I hadn't noticed that. Maybe that has something to do with it.

    2) I convert the images to sRGB from Lightroom using the export feature. Sometimes I use Photoshop healing brush tools or sharpening tools on the resulting sRGB jpeg after export from LR. Photoshop is set to save in sRGB color space thereafter. I understand that one should work in the widest available color spaces and only compress to sRGB once it's time to share on the web or print. That being said, windows file detail is not showing sRGB as the color representation (instead, it is blank) in the file properties.

    3) I don't work in sRGB. I must have miscommunicated somewhere -- All the major RAW development occurs in Lightroom, in ProPhotoRGB. I think I may have accidentally indicated that was aRGB. In any case, the RAW files come straight from my camera into LR, where I edit them as RAW files in ProPhotoRGB viewing conditions on an aRGB-compliant monitor.

    4) Per your request, I took a JPG test shot this morning, using Nikon's vivid mode. Imported to LR with no develop settings, and just left it as-is. In Lightroom, it looks more muted than a regular JPG shot in Vivid mode should appear (common theme here). Of course the original imported JPG file has sRGB listed as the color representation in file detail info. The exported JPG has no sRGB color representation (even though LR is set to export to sRGB).
    Despite the "difference", the original JPG and the exported JPG look identical to each other when viewed in Windows Pic Viewer, and they look identical to the view in Lightroom's develop module (muted). When viewed in Infranview, or any web browser, both versions appear identical to each other, but compared to LR or WPV, they appear more saturated and contrasty -- more what I would expect them to look like, and not overly garish. Holidays upon us, I was able to transfer the JPG's to a couple different family laptops to compare them - a PC and a Mac. The JPG's appear normal on their computers -- about the same as they are appearing for me in Infranview & Web browsers.
    Lightroom and Photoshop are color managed applications, and everyone says "these are right" despite what I may be seeing, but I just can't accept that... something is wrong.

    I stuck the test JPG's on my secondary (E207WFP) monitor this morning, and all versions look identical in windows pic viewer and Infranview, and have levels I would expect from a Vivid sRGB JPG. If I slide Lightroom over to the secondary monitor, the version in Lightroom looks absolutely horrendous. Overly garish and dithered to smitherines. When I slide Lightroom back to the main display (U2713H), the version in Lightroom looks dull again. When I slide the JPG's back over to the main U2713H display, suddenly the Windows Photo Viewer version becomes duller than it should be, while the Infranview version appears as it should.

    <Pulls hair out>

    Does this help diagnose the problem at all? To me, it seems it has to be some sort of windows color management setting on my main display. And perhaps Lightroom is bugged/faulty if it's not sticking an sRGB color profile onto my exports?

    Thanks for your thoughts,
    Bryan

  16. #16

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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Quote Originally Posted by dje View Post
    I don't think you can really calibrate your monitor for true colour "by eye" nor do I think you should be adjusting your monitor so that it matches the print results you get from a particular printer.
    I agree, but the photos come from a professional photo lab and go to clients. I had it calibrated such that my view in ALL my applications closely matched Lightroom and closely matched the prints from the lab. You can't ask for any better than that, despite the likely variance from "true" color due to eyeball calibration. What's important to me is that my digital viewing platforms match the printers at MPixPro. Now my digital viewing platforms are all wonked out of sync. A photographer cannot work in Lightroom without knowing what his prints will look like. Afterall, that is the point of calibration.

    Quote Originally Posted by dje View Post
    If you've edited your images whilst viewing with an incorrectly calibrated monitor, they will look different with a properly calibrated monitor.
    Yes they will, but within applications on the same monitor, I should have at the very least have consistency when viewing the same picture in different applications, regardless of whether it matches previous calibrations or profiles.

    Quote Originally Posted by dje View Post
    The monitor profiles you've generated with your i1 Display Pro should be reliable if they have been done correctly. I use a Spyder so I can't comment on the i1 but it would be worth checking your procedure carefuly, including things such as specifying the correct gamma.
    So far as I can tell, I have done so. I specified the backlight style (GB-LED), Gamma 2.2, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by dje View Post
    Did you get an icc profile for the new Dell monitor?
    I believe I chose not to install them, figuring my x-Rite profiles would be more accurate. I did, however, install the drivers that came with the disk.

    Quote Originally Posted by dje View Post
    Oh and one other suggestion - try editing one of your images from scratch using the new monitor and your XRite profile, and the see how consistent it is between software applications.
    Yep, tried that. Same inconsistencies.

  17. #17

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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Quote Originally Posted by Codebreaker View Post
    I would be interested to see one of your original images if possible because the links only point to images which have no colour profile information. Is it possible to post an original RAW file + XMP and the resulting JPEG?
    Codebreaker, I put the requested files (RAW, XMP, and resulting JPEG) in a .zip file for you. Here is a link to get it from my dropbox: https://www.dropbox.com/s/rml8hbitwd...Files.zip?dl=0

  18. #18
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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Bryan,

    "Looks dull" is normally a condition indicated by viewing a 'saved as sRGB' image on, for example, a wide-gamut (e.g. Adobe RGB) monitor that has not been set specifically to sRGB or does not automatically switch to sRGB. The condition can occur if the sRGB image has no embedded ICC sRGB profile, or if the viewing application can not read the embedded profile, or if a wide-gamut monitor does not recognize the profile and defaults to the wide gamut settings.

    The dullness is caused by pixel values in the file (which are correct for sRGB) not being adjusted "outward" to be correct for the target color space, e.g, Adobe RGB.

    The opposite applies: if you save as Adobe or ProPhoto and the viewing chain somehow uses sRGB the colors will indeed come out too vivid and some might even get clipped to the sRGB boundary and show up as 100% saturated in HSB.

    As I said earlier, monitor calibration and re-calibration does not fix this kind of problem.

    Is it possible for you to take a screen capture (shift-prtscn in Windows) of a dull-looking and a normal-looking image and post them here? We would then be better placed to see if it's just showing sRGB in Adobe RGB and vice-versa.

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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    FWIW...I pulled the RAW file into PS>opened as ProPhoto>applied minimal adjustments>
    converted to sRGB/8 bit for saving. Full size as well as 100% crop.
    From my end, colors look fine...lotta noise though.

    Help me!  Color management...

    Help me!  Color management...

  20. #20

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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Bryan following thread with interest, just wondering if you soft proof and if you do, do you use the ICC profiles supplied from your printer of the stock used and ink set used by them.

    Cheers: Allan

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