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Thread: Help me! Color management...

  1. #21

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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Quote Originally Posted by xpatUSA View Post
    Bryan,
    Is it possible for you to take a screen capture (shift-prtscn in Windows) of a dull-looking and a normal-looking image and post them here? We would then be better placed to see if it's just showing sRGB in Adobe RGB and vice-versa.
    This gives me hope it is simply a monitor setting somewhere I need to locate. Here is the screenshot you requested of my desktops (U2713H on left, E207WFP on right).
    http://i.imgur.com/7Imed2M.jpg
    The same image is placed on the background of each display, and also opened in windows photo viewer (left) and infranview (right).

    The view in windows photo viewer is what I consider "dull". That is how it appears in Lightroom as well.

    Thanks,
    Bryan

  2. #22

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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Quote Originally Posted by Polar01 View Post
    Bryan following thread with interest, just wondering if you soft proof and if you do, do you use the ICC profiles supplied from your printer of the stock used and ink set used by them.

    Cheers: Allan
    I do not soft-proof, no. In the past, I've been able to achieve an acceptable match between my photos in LR and the prints from MPixPro, so I haven't felt the need to soft-proof. I understand what it is, and understand the benefits, but with the volume of pictures I produce, soft-proofing is not a feasible step in my workflow and shouldn't be necessary, considering in the past I've had no problem getting what my "artists eye" wants reproduced onto a piece of paper at the print lab.

  3. #23

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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Bryan: in reference to your post #16. This has to do with ICC profiles, your X-rite i1 Display Pro will produce a profile for your monitor based on the calibration it did for said monitor. ICC profiles that you get from the printer and or paper manufacture are based on the printed used, ink set, and paper. I myself use a Epson 4900 printer with manufactures ink set for that printer, I also use 6 different Epson paper, therefore I have 6 different ICC profiles and to make it more interesting I have created custom ICC profiles of each different stock. If you really want to see how your image may look you need to get from your printer the ICC profiles for the stock, printer and ink set that they use. Install those profiles into you computer so you can soft proof to get a better idea of how your final printed image will look from your printer. Every stock will look different even printed on the same printer with same ink set, I know many years in the print industry as a colour matcher.

    Cheers: Allan

  4. #24

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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Well, thank you all for your help, but with the simple press of a few buttons, I have fixed the problem.

    Biggest surprise to many of you, it had nothing to do with color profiles, calibration, etc. I was simply fiddling with the buttons on the monitor, and the display settings therein. Honestly, I'm not even sure what I did, so I can't explain it, but it works now, and that is all that matters to me.

    Thank you all very much for listening, for your suggestions and time, especially around the holiday season. Special thanks to GrumpyDriver, whose point about my monitor being aRGB-compliant got me looking more deeply into the menus on the monitor itself, which led (somewhat accidentally) to the proper configuration and a fix.

    Happy Holidays to ALL!

  5. #25

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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Quote Originally Posted by Keen Ai View Post
    Well, thank you all for your help, but with the simple press of a few buttons, I have fixed the problem.

    Actually, scratch that. Since I thought I had the monitor settings nailed down, I used the x-rite to do a final calibration, and after the calibration, the same problem is back. And no amount of fiddling with the same buttons that "fixed" it before will work. Back to square one.

  6. #26
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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Bryan - when I open them in Photoshop CC 2015, I get exactly what I would have expected. The jpeg version has a lot of "pop" whereas the raw data is flat needs some basic adjustments to get it to a finished state. This performance is identical to what happens when I open my own raw files from any of my cameras.

    Glad you got things working. The scary part is that pushing buttons seems to have improved, rather than worsened the situation.

  7. #27

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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver View Post
    Bryan - when I open them in Photoshop CC 2015, I get exactly what I would have expected. The jpeg version has a lot of "pop" whereas the raw data is flat needs some basic adjustments to get it to a finished state. This performance is identical to what happens when I open my own raw files from any of my cameras.

    Glad you got things working. The scary part is that pushing buttons seems to have improved, rather than worsened the situation.
    It worked until I used the x-rite i1 display pro to calibrate the monitor again... after calibration completed, the problem was suddenly back. The only monitor adjustments I made were about 3 clicks to the brightness during the calibration process, nothing I had done before to "fix" it would bring it back.

    So I reloaded the profile that I had managed to get things "working" on, and it's back to normal.

    So... now I am afraid to calibrate my monitor!? This still isn't making sense!

  8. #28

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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    I think I'm starting to pin this down.

    I just now accidentally set my main display's default profile to be one that I created for my secondary display. When I said that switching the profile (in my previous post) had brought me back to normal, THAT is what brought me back to normal. Everything was displayed consistently, but with a little less contrast, which makes sense, since that profile was created for a different monitor.

    Anyway, I tried assigning profiles I actually created for the primary display back to it, and the problem persists.

    So I set it back to the default sRGB IEC61966-2.1 "sRGB Color Space Profile.icm" (one I did not create) and my colors are displayed consistently between applications (ie. problem solved).

    So after hearing that, does everyone agree it's either a problem with my x-Rite, or a problem with the way I have the program configured to do the calibration? As it would seem, I cannot calibrate my monitor without screwing it up. But I used the x-rite to calibrate my secondary display without screwing IT up. Now that is weird.
    Last edited by Keen Ai; 24th December 2015 at 09:13 PM.

  9. #29
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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Quote Originally Posted by Keen Ai View Post
    This gives me hope it is simply a monitor setting somewhere I need to locate. Here is the screenshot you requested of my desktops (U2713H on left, E207WFP on right).
    http://i.imgur.com/7Imed2M.jpg
    The same image is placed on the background of each display, and also opened in windows photo viewer (left) and infranview (right).

    The view in windows photo viewer is what I consider "dull". That is how it appears in Lightroom as well.

    Thanks,
    Bryan
    Thanks for the screen capture which illustrated the problem very well.

    I also downloaded the NEF and saved it as TIFFs one in Adobe and one in sRGB. Then I disabled color management in FastStone Viewer and opened the two files side-by-side. I expect that you will find their appearance quite familiar!

    Help me!  Color management...

    What we see at left is an image with an embedded Adobe RGB profile but opened without color management. The same effect would be visible if an sRGB image were opened on a wide-gamut monitor left set at "wide" gamut.

    So, I conclude that the problem is one of color gamut, not monitor calibration.

    By the way, sometime back (XP?), Windows Photo Viewer was definitely not color-managed. I understand later OS's have color management in the Control Panel and it might be worth looking in there to see what the options are?
    Last edited by xpatUSA; 24th December 2015 at 09:45 PM.

  10. #30

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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Here is a thought you have two displays, is the video card able to use two different profiles at the same time? A large number of systems are only able to display one profile at a time, you may well have profiles for say two monitors, a laptop, projector that does not mean that you can use more than one profile at a time.

    Cheers: Allan

  11. #31
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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Codebreaker, I put the requested files (RAW, XMP, and resulting JPEG) in a .zip file for you. Here is a link to get it from my dropbox: https://www.dropbox.com/s/rml8hbitwd...Files.zip?dl=0
    Thanks but the link just returns a 404 error.

  12. #32

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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Quote Originally Posted by Codebreaker View Post
    Thanks but the link just returns a 404 error.
    xPat was able to DL it, I'm not sure why you'd be getting a 404.

  13. #33
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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Quote Originally Posted by Codebreaker View Post
    Thanks but the link just returns a 404 error.

    Happens if a server is down. I'm putting the NEF up on my site temporarily. Still loading as we speak.

    http://kronometric.org/phot/temp/2015-Aug-12-69.NEF

    If your browser balks at opening a raw file, open the /temp/ folder instead and right-click to save the NEF (Windows/FireFox advice).
    Last edited by xpatUSA; 25th December 2015 at 05:35 PM.

  14. #34

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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Quote Originally Posted by Polar01 View Post
    Here is a thought you have two displays, is the video card able to use two different profiles at the same time?
    According to the specs on AMD's website regarding my AMD Radeon HD 7570 (that has latest drivers installed), it has AMD Eyefinity multi-display technology which allows:
    *Native support for up to 4 simultaneous displays
    *Independent resolutions, refresh rates, color controls, and video overlays
    *Display grouping (Combine multiple displays to behave like a single large display) -- which I have not done

    http://www.amd.com/Documents/AMD_Rad...re_Summary.pdf

  15. #35
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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Quote Originally Posted by xpatUSA View Post
    Happens if a server is down. I'm putting the NEF up on my site temporarily. Still loading as we speak.

    http://kronometric.org/phot/temp/2015-Aug-12-69.NEF

    If your browser balks at opening a raw file, open the /temp/ folder instead and right-click to save the NEF (Windows/FireFox advice).
    Thanks, got the raw file but would also like to have the XMP file so that I can see what the OP has done in Develop. Would also like the JPEG that was produced from this in order to do a comparison on my setup.

    Thxs and have a Happy New Year

  16. #36
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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Quote Originally Posted by Codebreaker View Post
    Thanks, got the raw file but would also like to have the XMP file so that I can see what the OP has done in Develop. Would also like the JPEG that was produced from this in order to do a comparison on my setup.

    Thxs and have a Happy New Year
    Uploading as of 15:10 UTC. Same folder as before.

  17. #37
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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    I've now downloaded all the files and looked at the results.

    I have two NEC Monitors calibrated and profiled with an i1 Display Pro

    Using LR v 5 with 2012 Process and PS CS4, the RAW and resulting JPG that you exported appear identical. I've also exported a JPG using the same settings as you and get identical results between the two.

    Viewing the JPG in Paint produces a slightly more saturated image and I'm sure this is down to the fact that Paint does not use the monitor profile I've produced.

    I have never been able to get any sensible results using Windows Photo Viewer in Vista, Win7 or Win 8.1 The images appear incredibly dark so I've never bothered with it.

    I would suspect that your the problems come down to the monitor calibration and profiles you've been using.

  18. #38
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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Quote Originally Posted by Codebreaker View Post
    I've now downloaded all the files and looked at the results.

    I have two NEC Monitors calibrated and profiled with an i1 Display Pro

    Using LR v 5 with 2012 Process and PS CS4, the RAW and resulting JPG that you exported appear identical. I've also exported a JPG using the same settings as you and get identical results between the two.

    Viewing the JPG in Paint produces a slightly more saturated image and I'm sure this is down to the fact that Paint does not use the monitor profile I've produced.

    I have never been able to get any sensible results using Windows Photo Viewer in Vista, Win7 or Win 8.1 The images appear incredibly dark so I've never bothered with it.
    Me too. I got sick of it's funny colors in XP and have used FastStone Viewer ever since. Irfan for while until it stopped opening my X3F files after an Irfan upgrade :-(

    I would suspect that your the problems come down to the monitor calibration and profiles you've been using.
    Interesting Colin!

    Person A says "So, I conclude that the problem is one of color gamut, not monitor calibration."

    Person B says "I would suspect that your the problems come down to the monitor calibration and profiles you've been using."

    Be nice if Bryan figured out which was the root cause, eh? ;-)
    Last edited by xpatUSA; 27th December 2015 at 05:24 PM.

  19. #39

    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Quote Originally Posted by Keen Ai View Post
    According to the specs on AMD's website regarding my AMD Radeon HD 7570 (that has latest drivers installed), it has AMD Eyefinity multi-display technology which allows:
    *Native support for up to 4 simultaneous displays
    *Independent resolutions, refresh rates, color controls, and video overlays
    *Display grouping (Combine multiple displays to behave like a single large display) -- which I have not done

    http://www.amd.com/Documents/AMD_Rad...re_Summary.pdf
    Sorry, I'm a bit late to the party here, but a bit of a brain dump of the things I'd do to try to pin down the problem.

    The link you gave says that the AMD Radeon HD 7570 supports multiple monitors, but I can't find anything that says it supports independent monitor profiles for each monitor. I've search other sites and can't find anything definitive. It probably does support independent profiles, though, as all cards I've come across in the last 5-10 years do.

    One thing: I assume the two displays are set up to show different content. That is, in Windows screen resolution settings, for "Multiple displays" is shows "Extend these displays" (and not "Duplicate these displays"). Windows doesn't support independent colour management with duplicated displays.

    A further issue: the U2713H is not only wide-gamut, but supports hardware calibration. That is, the LUT (Look Up Table) created by calibration can be loaded into the monitor hardware. I assume you use the Dell-supplied "Dell UltraSharp Color Calibration Solution" to do that, using the i1 Display Pro. The U2713HM is not wide-gamut, and doesn't support hardware calibration, and with the i1 Display Pro you have to use i1 Profiler software. The created LUT is used by the monitor driver software, not the monitor hardware. Both the Dell software and the xrite software need to run at start-up to load the LUTs into the monitor in the case of the U2713H, and into the driver in the case of the U2713HM. This difference might confuse the video card, but below is a way to test it.

    By the way, in both of these two calibration programs, there will be an option somewhere to create "v2" or "v4" profiles (icc version 2 or version 4). Set them both to create v2 profiles. V4 profiles have very few benefits for photographic use, and some software doesn't support them properly, sometimes creating mysterious and unpredictable errors. If in doubt, always try v2 profiles.

    I recommend you calibrate the U2713H (wide-gamut) monitor in custom or native mode, not sRGB mode or Adobe RGB mode. These latter factory calibrations are not as accurate as custom calibration. Once you have calibrated the monitors, don't alter any controls and especially don't alter the mode in the U2713 or the calibration will then be wrong. Similarly, if you change either profile e.g. in Control Panel -> Color Management (from the ones created by the calibration software) then again, all bets are off. The profile will then not correspond to the actual characteristics of the monitor.

    See http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/dell_u2713h.htm and http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/dell_u2713hm.htm for good descriptions of the calibration of these two monitors.

    Here's a way of testing that colour mangement is working, and that there are independent functioning profiles for each monitor. Try downloading these three files:
    http://www.simongarrett.co.uk/Primaries_sRGB.jpg
    http://www.simongarrett.co.uk/PrimariesAdobeRGB.jpg
    http://www.simongarrett.co.uk/PrimariesProPhotoRGB.jpg

    As the titles suggest, these are images in three different colour spaces, each containing 100% saturated blobs of primary and secondary colours in each colour space.

    Download them and save them as jpg files rather than viewing them in a browser, as most browsers aren't properly colour-managed. View them in Windows Photo Viewer - which is colour-managed.

    The U2713HM is standard gamut (approximately sRGB) and all three images should look similar when displayed on this monitor in a colour-managed viewer (such as Windows Photo Viewer). It can't display colours beyond sRGB, but colour-managed software will convert the colours in each case to the monitor's colour space (i.e. approximately sRGB). The colours in the Adobe RGB and ProPhoto RGB images are way beyond the gamut of the U2713HM, but colour-managed software will (should) clip the colours to the nearest equivalent that is in gamut. As the colour (hue) of each blob is the same in each image (differing only in saturation), they should look the same when converted to the monitor's colour space.

    If the three don't look the same (or very similar), then colour management isn't working, for example the profile might be faulty, or not loaded, or the video driver isn't using it. If the three do look the same, colour management is probably working - although it doesn't prove that the profile is correct.

    On the U2713H (wide-gamut), the sRGB image should look very similar to how it looks on the U2713HM. If it does, and all three images look the same on the -HM monitor, then colour management is probably working, and both monitors probably have independent, functioning profiles. If not, again there's something wrong with profiles, how they're loaded or how the monitor or driver are using them.

    On the -H (wide-gamut) monitor, the Adobe RGB image should look significantly more vivid than the sRGB image. The ProPhoto one might look very slightly more vivid still, as the U2713H is a bit wider gamut than Adobe RGB, but the difference may be very slight. If the Adobe RGB image looks no different on the -H monitor to the sRGB image, have you got the monitor in sRGB mode?

    I hope this helps, and sorry if I'm saying something trivially obvious, irrelevant or covered by earlier posts (I have read them all, but a bit quickly!)
    Last edited by Simon Garrett; 28th December 2015 at 12:07 AM.

  20. #40

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    Re: Help me! Color management...

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Garrett View Post
    I hope this helps, and sorry if I'm saying something trivially obvious, irrelevant or covered by earlier posts (I have read them all, but a bit quickly!)
    Wow, a lot to digest here! I read it a few times, and have spent quite a bit of time reading your recommended sites and some others as well. Still pretty confused, but maybe have an idea of what to try.

    Just to clarify, I no longer have the -HM. It was sent back to Dell. My main display now is the -H and my secondary display is an older Dell E207WFP.

    I downloaded your test images and viewed them in Windows Photo Viewer on each screen. My results, of course, confuse me even further.
    On the secondary (E207WFP) display, which shouldn't be wide-gamut, all 3 pictures look different when I have a custom .icm loaded for it that I created with the x-Rite i1 Display and iProfiler software. If I switch the profile to the default sRGB .icm, all 3 versions look nearly identical (only slight variation around the edges, almost imperceptible). However, on this monitor, all my sRGB jpegs look as I would expect them to.

    On the primary -H display, I have been using it is set in "Custom" color mode on the OSD, and has the standard sRGB .icm loaded in the windows color management settings, and set as the default. The three test images look nearly identical here as well. I tried loading the Dell-provided monitor profile for the -H, and once I do that, the 3 images DO look different, about as you described, but sRGB is very dull, aRGB is more vivid, and ProPHotoRGB is even more vivid with less smooth gradation to the edges of the blue blob. In addition, all my previously created sRGB jpegs look horrible in windows pic viewer, and are WAY less saturated compared to what comes out of a professional print lab (that requests my images in sRGB).

    Perhaps the answer may be that I need to use hardware calibration on the -H (alas, I didn't even know this was possible). And I will need to just use software calibration on the E207WFP. I am satisfied with the software calibration I have there at the moment.

    After reading all this stuff about hardware calibration in native mode vs. aRGB vs. sRGB, I am thinking I should just do a hardware calibration in sRGB for CAL1 and leave it like that. Work there in Lightroom, export to sRGB, etc. That seems to be the only way I'm going to see a reliable level of consistency between what I create in Lightroom, what the exported sRGB looks like to the average computer user, and what the prints will look like from my lab.

    I am not a high-end graphics designer or stock photographer or anything, I am just a semi-pro photographer, where the most important thing for me is being able to accurately see what I'm sending clients while I am creating it in Lightroom. I understand it won't be perfect, but in the past, it was close enough for me and everyone else.

    If this is the case, I am willing to try it. I found an article about how to do this -- here.

    Do these steps sound correct? It doesn't seem to me necessary to uninstall the iProfiler software (and especially since I'll need it for future profiles on the secondary monitor, I'd rather not remove it).

    Seems to me that I should
    A) Install the Dell UltraSharp Color Calibration Solution software (which I didn't have previously, but I just downloaded).
    B) Use it to perform a calibration on the -H, along with my i1Display Pro (boy did I get lucky that I ordered the proper model) and then don't dare touch the OSD settings.
    C) Make sure the newly created .icm is set as default in windows color management settings.

    If I can get a little encouragement that this is probably the correct path for me, I am ready to try it. If anyone has any other suggestions, I am all ears.

    Thanks!

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