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Thread: Macro using high megapixel cameras

  1. #1

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    Macro using high megapixel cameras

    I'm gonna upgrade during the Black Friday deals...what problems might I encounter jumping
    from 22MP to 50MP for stacked macro work.

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    DanK's Avatar
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    Re: Macro using high megapixel cameras

    I've never tried it, but my guess is that the major difference will be much slower speed.

    I would check two other things: whether your software has any size limitations, and whether you have enough computer memory. When I moved up from 15 to 22 MP, I had the latter problem. I stack in Zerene using 16-bit TIFF files, which are very large. My old 32-bit Windows computer couldn't handle it. Once I switched to 64-bit with more memory, everything was fine.

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    Re: Macro using high megapixel cameras

    My homebuilt computer, by my geek kid, wouldn't be a problem.
    I'm just asking about the camera performance in shooting macro...the practical aspect.

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    Moderator Manfred M's Avatar
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    Re: Macro using high megapixel cameras

    One issue could be that your setup may become "lens limited", i.e. the sensor's ability to resolve the image may end up outperforming the lenses ability to deliver. Macro shooters will go with small apertures to maximize the already very shallow DoF and you might find diffraction effects more noticeable. Even very small amounts of camera movement (shake)may be noticeable.

    All that being said, as any system is limited by the weakest component in the system. The lenses lack of sharpness is already there, it's just that the sensor can't resolve it, same story with diffraction and and camera shake. By upping the resolution, the weaknesses of other parts of the camera system will show themselves.

    With respect to the computer, you will find slower load and save times and you will burn through your disk space much more quickly. My experience of stepping up from a 12MP D90 to a 36MP D800, disk space was the most noticeable impact. If you primarily edit non-destructively in Photoshop and use plenty of layers, expect some HUGE Photoshop files (some of mine approach 2GB and if they get larger, I have to use the *.PSB Large Document Format to save the files to get over Photoshops 2GB files size limit.

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    Moderator Dave Humphries's Avatar
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    Re: Macro using high megapixel cameras

    Key question is; are the sensor (physical) sizes the same?

    If so, then I'd not really expect any noticeable problem - unless Manfred's ideas bite you.

    If not; say if moving from APS-C to FF, then you'll lose some Depth of Field (for a given f number on each camera system).

    But I've not tried it myself.
    Last edited by Dave Humphries; 19th November 2015 at 09:52 AM. Reason: clarified my mention of DoF reducing

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    William W's Avatar
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    Re: Macro using high megapixel cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by chauncey View Post
    . . . I'm just asking about the camera performance in shooting macro...the practical aspect
    I assume the upgrade is to a 5DS or 5DS R.

    Apropos the lens(es) which you intend to use: CPN released a paper in June 2015; the extract which I've quoted below should be of benefit

    “The EF system goes back 27 years now and some of these lenses available today were designed back in the days of film. The technical demands of digital cameras on lenses has meant there has been a need to update lenses over a period of time to match newer cameras’ capabilities.”

    “The EOS 5DS and EOS 5DS R have the capability to produce a stunning amount of detail and in order to resolve all that fine detail then obviously you need to make sure you are using the best lenses on the market. To get the best out of these cameras you need to put the very best piece of glass in front of the sensor.”

    Mike Burnhill
    CPN Professional Imaging Technical Support Programme Manager
    Canon Europe

    Canon recommends the following lenses for getting the best from the EOS 5DS and EOS 5DS R:

    Wide angle fixed focal lenses

    TSE17mmf/4L
    TSE24mmf/3.5L II
    EF24mm f/1.4L II USM
    EF24mm f/2.8 IS USM
    EF28mm f/2.8 IS USM
    EF35mm f/2 IS USM

    Telephoto fixed focal length lenses

    EF85mm f/1.2L II USM
    EF85mm f/1.8 USM
    TSE90mmf/2.8
    EF100mm f/2 USM
    EF100mm f/2.8 Macro USM
    EF100mm f/2.8L Macro IS USM
    EF135mm f/2.0L USM
    EF200mm f/2L II USM [sic]
    EF200mm f/2.8L II USM
    EF300mm f/2.8L IS II USM
    EF400mm f/2.8L IS II USM
    EF400mm f/4 DO IS II USM
    EF500mm f/4L IS II USM
    EF600mm f/4L IS II USM
    EF800mm f/5.6L IS USM

    Standard fixed focal lenses

    EF40mm f/2.8 STM
    EF50mm f/1.2L USM
    EF50mm f/1.4 USM
    EF50mm f/1.8 II
    EF50mm f/2.5 Compact Macro

    Zoom lenses

    EF8 15mmf/4L Fisheye USM
    EF11 24mmf/4L USM
    EF16 35mmf/4L IS USM
    EF24 70mmf/2.8L II USM
    EF24 70mmf/4L IS USM
    EF70 200mmf/2.8L IS II USM
    EF70 200mmf/4L USM
    EF70 300mmf/4 5.6LIS USM
    EF100 400mmf/4.5 5.6L IS II USM
    EF200 400mmf/4L IS USM EXTENDER1.4x
    REF: “Fit the best to the best: Canon’s recommended lenses for EOS 5DS and EOS 5DSR”
    CPN E-Document; June 2015.

    WW

    Extract of Copyright Document republished and referenced under Fair Usage / Educational Purposes.

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    William W's Avatar
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    Re: Macro using high megapixel cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver View Post
    One issue could be that your setup may become "lens limited", i.e. the sensor's ability to resolve the image may end up outperforming the lenses ability to deliver . . .
    haha! Yes. I was busy finding my CPN documents when you were writing.

    Bill

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    Re: Macro using high megapixel cameras

    My current lenses of choice mounted on my Canon 1Ds3 are a 300mm f/2.8 or a 180 macro...
    both are noted for great MTF tables.

    FWIW, checking a DOF calculator indicates that DOF changes don't seem significant twixt different MP's

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    pnodrog's Avatar
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    Re: Macro using high megapixel cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by chauncey View Post

    FWIW, checking a DOF calculator indicates that DOF changes don't seem significant twixt different MP's
    Seems logical. Once a sensor exceeds the resolving power of our vision and assuming we are going to view the total image the DOF has essentially plateaued. We may have to review how we define DOF....

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    Moderator Manfred M's Avatar
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    Re: Macro using high megapixel cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by chauncey View Post
    FWIW, checking a DOF calculator indicates that DOF changes don't seem significant twixt different MP's
    DoF has nothing to do with sensor size / MP of the camera. Where DoF comes into play is the point where (based on some assumption on image size and viewing distance) is that a higher resolution sensor WILL be able to discern diffraction due to the size of the photodectors in the sensor for a specific aperture.

    Use the advanced settings of: https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tu...htm#calculator and enter the 50MP sensor. The calculator will show that a moderate aperture of f/8 will allow the sensor to pick up the softening effect of diffraction. If I throw in the 36MP that my D800 delivers, I'm "safe" up to f/11.

    What does this mean in layman's terms? The sensor resolves so well (given the assumptions that were previously mentioned), that it will BE CAPABLE of picking up the softness due to the light hitting the edges of the iris blades in the lens (this is the root cause of diffraction). The diffraction is always there, but lesser sensors are not capable of resolving to that degree, so they never pick it up. Pop in a 100MP sensor (for a full frame camera) and it will be diffraction limited at f/5.6, at which point other lens performance characteristics (look at the MTF chart) will start impacting the quality of the image.

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    DanK's Avatar
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    Re: Macro using high megapixel cameras

    I don't think either DOF or resolving power will be much of an issue. If the sensor outresolves the lens, you just won't get all the additional detail that the sensor can offer.

    As Manfred pointed out, the lens will be diffraction-limited at a wider aperture, so if you want to preserve all that detail, you may have to shoot at a wider aperture and stack more slices.

    If you don't print very large or crop a lot, I wonder if you will see much difference. Without cropping, your current camera can print to almost 13 x 19 with no upresing on a Canon printer with a native resolution of 300 ppi. But then again, I have never tried--my 5D3 is the highest-resolution camera I have ever owned.

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    pnodrog's Avatar
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    Re: Macro using high megapixel cameras

    Simple: If diffraction becomes a greater issue than the struggle for DOF then one answer could be to go to a wider aperture and increase the stacking.

    My gut (no rude comments please) feeling is that diffraction would only become a major issue if the temptation to take advantage of the additional sensor resolution is given into by excessive cropping.

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    Re: Macro using high megapixel cameras

    My Sigma cameras can produce truly binned 1/2 size raws, and I shoot macro quite a bit. Therefore I have the luxury of either 15MP or 3.6MP at the flick of the Quick-set button. The pixel pitches are 5um or 10um respectively.

    At the lower resolution, the sensor itself only sees diffraction at about f/16+. At the higher resolution, maybe f/10 or so.

    As has been already said, calculated DOF is rather more dependent on the viewing output. I myself get very good DOF at home due to my poor eyesight and my 0.294mm dot-pitch monitor. Probably twice as much DOF or more compared to average humans looking at their 10x8" 300 ppi prints at exactly one foot from their nose
    Last edited by xpatUSA; 19th November 2015 at 06:06 AM.

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    Re: Macro using high megapixel cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by chauncey View Post
    My current lenses of choice mounted on my Canon 1Ds3 are a 300mm f/2.8 or a 180 macro...
    both are noted for great MTF tables.

    FWIW, checking a DOF calculator indicates that DOF changes don't seem significant twixt different MP's
    One of the arguments for a magapixel camera is the crop argument. When cropping, you'll have to calculate with a different CoC. And some more factors.

    George

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    Re: Macro using high megapixel cameras

    My experience upgrading from my D300s to my D800e and D810 is that it made me think I am a better photographer seeing all those pixels at close-up. It certainly looks that way especially after using a large birding lens and zooming ever so close even after pp...then I went back to my D300s using DX lenses and found out it was my thinking that needed upgrading. To sum it up, upgrading my camera is a good thing for the heck of it and it makes me feel good too. So go for it! Then think of the many lenses you can uses with it...OUCH!

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    Re: Macro using high megapixel cameras

    Thanks all...great points to consider...especially the DOF limitations due to diffraction.
    think of the many lenses you can uses with i
    Izzie...ya know I love ya but, sometimes you can be as mean as a snake.

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    Re: Macro using high megapixel cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by chauncey View Post
    Thanks all...great points to consider...especially the DOF limitations due to diffraction.

    Izzie...ya know I love ya but, sometimes you can be as mean as a snake.
    I don't think that's right.

    George

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    Moderator Manfred M's Avatar
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    Re: Macro using high megapixel cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by chauncey View Post
    Tthe DOF limitations due to diffraction.
    I'll have to agree with George, this statement is not correct. While DoF and diffraction are definitely related to the aperture used, but they are separate effects. Both are related to the size of image you are looking at and the distance you are viewing it from (and as Ted points out) your eyesight.

    If you want to get really that nit-picky, then you'd have to get a new macro lens as well. Your 180mm macro is not on Canon's list of lenses that are "good enough" for use on the 5DR that Bill posted. .

    Just enjoy your new toy if you end up getting it and stop worry about the details. The new body is certainly not going to give you worse images than you get today.

  19. #19
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    Re: Macro using high megapixel cameras

    Now I am confused. I think DOF limitations are linked to diffraction by their shared correlation with aperture. Here is how I think of this. Someone tell me if I am wrong.

    First, let's hold print size, viewing distance, eyesight, and sensor size constant to get a minimal contrast: higher vs. lower pixel density, and therefore smaller vs. larger pixels.

    Pixel size is negatively correlated with the physical aperture at which a lens becomes diffraction-limited: the smaller the pixels, the larger the aperture at which diffraction limits resolution. OK so far?

    So, if you want to limit yourself not to shoot at narrower apertures than those at which diffraction becomes a factor (a limitation I don't impose on myself), moving to a sensor with smaller pixels means imposing a larger maximum aperture (smaller f-stop number). This will give you narrower DOF.

    What am I missing?

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    Re: Macro using high megapixel cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by DanK View Post
    Now I am confused. I think DOF limitations are linked to diffraction by their shared correlation with aperture. Here is how I think of this. Someone tell me if I am wrong.

    First, let's hold print size, viewing distance, eyesight, and sensor size constant to get a minimal contrast: higher vs. lower pixel density, and therefore smaller vs. larger pixels.

    Pixel size is negatively correlated with the physical aperture at which a lens becomes diffraction-limited: the smaller the pixels, the larger the aperture at which diffraction limits resolution. OK so far?

    So, if you want to limit yourself not to shoot at narrower apertures than those at which diffraction becomes a factor (a limitation I don't impose on myself), moving to a sensor with smaller pixels means imposing a larger maximum aperture (smaller f-stop number). This will give you narrower DOF.

    What am I missing?
    DOF is based on the CoC. Based on the idea that you can distinguish a point from a circle. It's purely based on the magnification of the sensor in mm. As long as the Airy disk is smaller as the CoC it's said that it doesn't have an effect.

    George

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