Am I giving good advice?

[Loose Canon]

Just thought I’d toss a couple of Theories that would come in under budget Trev! He has everything he needs to make the shots! Putting it together is always going to be the key no matter the gear.

While there is a (possible) distortion question with wide glass, so there are questions with stitching multiples. He gets it wrong and it will rear worse than a single frame.

I get the dilemma and I get that you knew this when you asked.

No experience with the lenses you are asking about so no help there except I kicked one of Grandaughter’s borrowed school lenses into the drink and had to replace it! But sure cool talking to you!

Best of to BIL Trev. Best advice to BIL is get on the Forum and go from there?

These guys here who are responding to you are no kidding Bad-A!

[Loose Canon]

Oops Trev!

Must've been writing when I should have been listening!

[Tronhard]

Hi again!
I had to refer back to the BIL, so I am trying to catch up again...

First if not specifically mentioning his preference in the first post confused you I humbly apologise. You ARE right, I AM between a rock and a hard place here. I like my BIL very much but sometimes it is not easy to engage.

I would like to thank everyone who has offered great questions (many of which I could not, in all honesty, fully answer on his behalf!) and great ideas on how to proceed.

It turns out he had dropped the 18-55 although he is fuzzy as to exactly when that occurred. I have, however, no idea if that had any effect on the lens. I have already asked him to see if he can get it checked before he makes any decision.

From my own experience I owned a newer 18-55 and found it to deliver poor images, so you have some of my own reaction here when looking at a replacement. I could afford to get rid of it and get some other glass that did render better results. Looking at the comparison in post 11 and my own use of DPReview's comparison, in the examples they used the comparisons are very good. So I am happy to consider that I managed to get a lemon and not damn the whole production line! (I have not conveyed my experience to him).

I completely agree that splashing out money on more expensive gear does not make for better images (hence my signature!) However, I am not utterly convinced that he will be overly receptive if (assuming his current lens is damaged) I tell him to get another of the type of lens he believes is his problem... this is as much an exercise in persuasion as technical viability. I could not dare suggest sending him to go on line, he would be overwhelmed by the jargon, question, and opinions sincerely offered. He would crash and go into his shell and I can't risk that.

I think the most workable solution is for him to (as suggested) rent a lens, go out with his advisors to take some test shots and see if it makes a difference. That will not involve a major outlay, the lenses are no doubt checked to make sure they are ok and if at the end he really wants a new lens, at least he will have had some personal experience to go on.

Oh, and I could suggest a photographic course at the local tech if he can save the funds from not purchasing the lens!!!

[IzzieK]

I'd like to butt in here on a different reason but connected to yours and his dilemma -- your BIL is a bit embarrassed by his situation so if you are willing to send him a lens, why not just sent it to him, no questions asked; and since you said he cannot afford to spend money, you are going in circles trying to explain to him the situation both ways. From your responses it seems that the lens is already damaged so no amount of excuses is really necessary -- he does not have any lens to work on. If he is my BIL, I will just send him the lens that I offer. He will appreciate you more for it.

[William W]

Gidday Trev,

. . . First if not specifically mentioning his preference in the first post confused you I humbly apologise.

No need to apologize for my benefit. I was merely stating facts: not displaying my emotions.

*

You ARE right, I AM between a rock and a hard place here. I like my BIL very much but sometimes it is not easy to engage.

Understood. I believe that I have experienced similar situations.

*

It turns out he had dropped the 18-55 although he is fuzzy as to exactly when that occurred. I have, however, no idea if that had any effect on the lens. I have already asked him to see if he can get it checked before he makes any decision.

OK. We know more, that’s good. Then this conversation has achieved much, even though it might not be directly addressing where you initially thought the conversation might head. I think that your advice to get the lens checked out is sound advice.

*

From my own experience I owned a newer 18-55 and found it to deliver poor images, so you have some of my own reaction here when looking at a replacement. . .

Thanks. It is always good to know if any bias might be present in a conversation.

*

I have not conveyed my experience to him

Good idea. I agree.

BTW – my view is that we two could talk for hours about our personal experiences with the 18 to 55 lens. I’ve used three or four different models. But all our talking, beyond establishing solid evidence that at F/8~F/11 and at around FL = 28mm to 35mm those lenses can produce “very good” to “excellent quality” images – all our talk won’t assist your BIL, all that much.

*

I completely agree that splashing out money on more expensive gear does not make for better images (hence my signature!) However, I am not utterly convinced that he will be overly receptive if (assuming his current lens is damaged) I tell him to get another of the type of lens he believes is his problem... thicamers is as much an exercise in persuasion as technical viability. I could not dare suggest sending him to go on line, he would be overwhelmed by the jargon, question, and opinions sincerely offered. He would crash and go into his shell and I can't risk that.

(Obviously) I don’t know the ins and outs of your BIL’s health, but putting the jigsaw puzzle together – I concur that IF his 18 to 55 is damaged then it is unlikely that is it a good idea to suggest buying another one, of the same ilk.

*

I think the most workable solution is for him to (as suggested) rent a lens, go out with his advisors to take some test shots and see if it makes a difference. That will not involve a major outlay, the lenses are no doubt checked to make sure they are ok and if at the end he really wants a new lens, at least he will have had some personal experience to go on.

I agree that ‘personal experience to go on’ might be integral to benefiting a good outcome.

Other Prime Lenses around that FL and that won’t break the bank are: EF 35/2 and EF 28/1.8 EF 50/1.8MkII.

Don’t dismiss the EF 50/1.8 MkII.

Also he might be able to find a camera store which sells second hand gear, where he is able to try a lens for a small fee, which would go to the purchase price if he buys it.

*

Oh, and I could suggest a photographic course at the local tech if he can save the funds from not purchasing the lens!!!

Frankly, my major concern is two-fold:

– firstly that irrespective of the 18 to 55 being damaged, or not; I read into the equation that best practice techniques are possibly not being followed at the shooting end, (best guess is probably tripod & tripod shooting technique related)

- secondly best practice Post Production Techniques for ‘print ready’ are possibly not being followed.

So from that assumed premise, launching forth into executing best Practice Panning and Exposure Techniques and the subsequent requisite Post Production of a Panorama Image for publication will most likely require some hands on assistance, or some type of tutoring or guidance. My speculation is that if your BIL comes up with the idea that him learning new techniques would be beneficial, that would probably move toward a good outcome.

As mentioned before, good luck.

WW

[William W]

Izzie's idea and also her clear synopsis of the situation have merit. (post #24)

[chauncey]

Izzie's idea and also her clear synopsis of the situation have merit. (post #24)

Gotta agree here as well.
Understanding that most any lens can cough out good panoramas when you remember that the
center of any one image has the top IQ and that plenty of overlap will produce good images...
providing good image taking technique.

[Saorsa]

I think that the suggestion to go with the 50mm f1.8 is a good one. It would effectively be an 80mm lens and would work very well for stitched panoramas.

I would work with him to ensure that the axis of rotation for the panorama is correct and perhaps get him a focus rail to help with that. A tripod level would also be a worthwhile investment.

I like shooting vertical if I plan on stitching. It needs a few more shots but ends up with more available space in the image.

[chauncey]

I would work with him to ensure that the axis of rotation for the panorama is correct and perhaps get him a focus rail to help with that. A tripod level would also be a worthwhile investment.

I agree with Manfred in that shooting handheld is fine, provided your shutter speed is adequate.
Never felt the need for a rail or level...that's taken care of in PP.

[ST1]

Hi Trev, I've been reading all of the responses to you OP in which there has been some really excellent suggestions. I sympathise with your dilemma WRT your Bil his medical situation and his perceived issues with an unknown book editor.
You don't say but I think you're suggesting that the book project is a commercial undertaking (I may have jumped to a incorrect conclusion here, apologies if I have) rather than a personal project of your BiL. The commercial publishing issues and potential ways to overcome them have been well covered in the previous responses.
However if your BiL is wanting to create a personaI project capturing images of the nature you described earlier, I may be suggesting something that could be considered off the wall here but ...how do you think your BiL would perceive an offer of you becoming his picture editor (assuming you have the skills and time to do so). You could then arrange to have a book and or calendars printed on your BiL's behalf. This would obviously not overcome a lens fault scenario and probably joy commercially acceptable but it has the advantage of allowing you to judge directly any quality issues with images made, both existing images which the editor has deemed lacking and any new images your BiL makes.
Just my thoughts having read between the lines, feel free to ignore if I have read the situation incorrectly.

[Saorsa]

I agree with Manfred in that shooting handheld is fine, provided your shutter speed is adequate.
Never felt the need for a rail or level...that's taken care of in PP.

It often is fine and most of my panoramas are handheld in vertical orientation to allow for cropping at the top and bottom (see the Edinburgh image above).

That said, for best quality panoramas you really need to consider the other two axes of the camera, a bit of a tilt or twist and you introduce the possibility of visible seams and distortion. The break in the crane image above was likely due to a slight twist as I rotated.

[Tronhard]

Hi Izzie:

This conversation began as what I thought would be a simple matter of finding a lens that might fit a need, but we have gone way past that now...

At first look sending him a lens would seem like the thing to do for a quick solution. I have lots of lenses and bodies, and I would be happy to give him whatever he needs. I considered it, but after discussing this with his sister I have had to look at other factors as I am having to deal with a very delicate situation with regards mental health.

In sending him a lens I am relieving him of the cost and trouble of getting one himself, and most people would see that as a big positive. However I am also making a decision for him and when he is stressed, he will feel trapped and can react negatively. I have found from experience that education and persuasion where he has control is a far gentler and more productive means of progressing him along. He is HIGHLY intelligent, but pays for that in other ways: he just needs to gain the knowledge and skills for controlling his technical issues and then he will move forward - and he will do that. In the meantime he will not tolerate having me decide for him, and I must respect that.

[Saorsa]

In the meantime he will not tolerate having me decide for him, and I must respect that.

If you have, or could acquire, a 50mm f1.8 you could 'lend' it to him. That way you would be seen as assisting not deciding.

I see them for less than $100 on ebay and it might be a worthwhile investment in family harmony.

[Tronhard]

It's a thought certainly. But I think he might see through that one... I have offered to pay for the rental of a couple of lenses and I hope he will take me up on that offer. So often it's not the technical but the interpersonal issues that complicate matters. Not that the technical stuff is trivial, I love it!

[IzzieK]

Understood Trev...we have a neighbour whom I sometimes take care of. Very intelligent for his own good at times but also very touchy when it comes to doing his own thing. He has down syndrome but he is a real amenable kid...and very curious to the point that he will try his best to beat an instruction given to him until he perfects it...so I thought...nevermind....just a suggestion on my part if I was able to help.

Hi Izzie:

This conversation began as what I thought would be a simple matter of finding a lens that might fit a need, but we have gone way past that now...

At first look sending him a lens would seem like the thing to do for a quick solution. I have lots of lenses and bodies, and I would be happy to give him whatever he needs. I considered it, but after discussing this with his sister I have had to look at other factors as I am having to deal with a very delicate situation with regards mental health.

In sending him a lens I am relieving him of the cost and trouble of getting one himself, and most people would see that as a big positive. However I am also making a decision for him and when he is stressed, he will feel trapped and can react negatively. I have found from experience that education and persuasion where he has control is a far gentler and more productive means of progressing him along. He is HIGHLY intelligent, but pays for that in other ways: he just needs to gain the knowledge and skills for controlling his technical issues and then he will move forward - and he will do that. In the meantime he will not tolerate having me decide for him, and I must respect that.

[loosecanon]

There are good and bad copies of the 18-55, older ones do suffer bad distortion at 18mm end.

The good news if he has damaged the lens is that new ones are available at £100. split from kits by camera shops - sold without box.

Is the lens clean?. If it has IS does he turn it off when using a tripod, the IS version used needs this to be done.

The great lens to use with canon's crop sensor is the 17-35 L f4 , which is common secondhand.

[pnodrog]

I have not noticed any reference to how experienced the 550D owner is. Providing the 550D and the lens are not faulty they should be capable of producing images suitable for at least 8x12" printed images.

The most common mistakes for a novice photographer regarding quality are:

1. Setting the camera at its lowest resolution so they get more shots on the memory card.
2. Setting the JPEG compression to the lowest quality so they get more shots on the memory card.
3. Lend the camera to one of their children who will immediately do the above.

4. Email the image using the emails software (often the default) setting that automatically reduces the size of any attached image.

To me the problem smacks of technique or process not the capabilities of equipment.

A note of file sizes from camera to book editing software may provided a clue as to what is going wrong.

[pnodrog]

Having read a bit more of this thread the above seems a little bit too basic but it is amazing how we often overlook or assume things.

P.S. Just read he is shooting RAW so hopefully my post is completely irrelevant.

[inkista]

Just wanted to pop in a few lens suggestions you may not have considered, as they're all relatively new (if that's the way you're going).

There's now a EF 50mm f/1.8 STM, which is probably a better choice than the old all-plastic EF 50/1.8 II, simply because it has a decent MF ring and a metal mount plate. Costs roughly the same.

There's now an EF-S 24mm f/2.8 STM pancake lens, which works like a 35-equivalent for crop, which makes it slightly more general-use than the 40/2.8 STM pancake. Costs roughly the same.

There's also now an EF-S 10-18 ultrawide zoom that's half the price of the 10-22. Might be too expensive, but an ultrawide lens for a landscape shooter who isn't technically inclined to stitch panos might be worth the money in the long run.

If your BIL is going to panostitch with a fast prime, I'd suggest that appropriate software that can stitch grids and correct horizons is called for (Hugin is open source, but can be a bit cryptic; PTAssembler or PTGui might also be good choices if simple stitchers aren't working out but could be too expensive), and appropriate coaching to teach how to shoot without gaps in coverage, enough scene coverage to allow for horizon correction and cropping, no shifting white balance/exposure settings between member shots, and enough coverage through time to eliminate ghosts/clones. And that if a very long lens is going to be used, then a panohead might be called for. No free lunches, alas.

[Tronhard]

Thanks to ALL who offered advice on this thread. I have managed to reach some sort of conclusion, and thanks to an incredible good Samaritan my BIL now has access to a Canon 7D and two lenses. I am truly humbled by this person's generosity... I understand that the BIL is getting some local coaching on his technique, so with luck he will get the results we all hope for. This was my first journey into CICF posts, and I am amazed at the supportive responses. Thank you all again.