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Thread: Learning to Photograph Mountain Scenery - Continued Part 2

  1. #21
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    Re: Learning to Photograph Mountain Scenery - Continued Part 2

    Thank you for your words of advice, and a lovely edit. I do like the image in b&w. I will give it a try later this week.

    Yes, I do post process to try and capture what I saw, and dealing with the haze forced me to do otherwise, and yes I am not crazy about the resulting tones and colours. And at this point in time I'm at a loss on how to post process such images to my liking... Which goes back to vision... etc.

    Thank you for your counsel and giving me something to think about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Buckley View Post
    Christina,

    You have a tendency that you want a photograph to display the colors as you remember them in a scene when you photographed it. When capturing scenes that have a lot of haze, that presents a particular quandary for you: the presence of the haze not only is a color that you do not want to replicate in the photo, the haze also limits the dynamic range in a way that you don't want to replicate.

    So, you have only two choices now that you have understandably decided that you don't like haze: either don't take the picture or alter it so significantly during post-processing that it no longer resembles the colors or the dynamic range that you experienced.

    To demonstrate my point that relatively effective images can be made that bear no resemblance to the colors or dynamic range that you experienced, consider the monochrome version of your first image minus the top layer of clouds. I made this image far too quickly, as you can see by the lack of detail in a few areas. Even so, hopefully it helps support my point that you need to get away from the requirement in all situations that the photo replicates the scene.


    Learning to Photograph Mountain Scenery - Continued Part 2

  2. #22
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    Re: Learning to Photograph Mountain Scenery - Continued Part 2

    LOL

    Thanks for providing me with a vision...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowman View Post
    #5 has a bit of a face within and reminded me of The Fallen from the Transformer movies.

    http://images2.fanpop.com/images/pho...-1280-1024.jpg

  3. #23
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    Re: Learning to Photograph Mountain Scenery - Continued Part 2

    I had a look at No1 Christina mostly because Mike missed out another way of dealing with mist in a limited way that is quick to do. All I did was duplicate the layer and set it to soft light. The effect can be varied by adjusting the opacity. I thought around 70% was about right. One thing that struck me was that the general colouration looked rather strange so as you can try the soft light layer your self my immediate thought was take a look at the channels in levels. They did look a bit weird. Given suitable conditions R, G and B will have very similar spans and positions in the input histogram that I hope your levels displays. One adjustment that can work is to move the input end pointers on each channel so that they just touch each end of their histograms and leave the output span at it's default setting or adjust it later. Often it isn't as simple as this and varying amounts of "space" has to be left between the pointers and the histogram ends and one or more channels may need leaving as they are. As I am not keen on trying to sort this sort of thing out if it is messed up some how I just hit auto levels. This made some pretty substantial changes in the per channel settings. The effects are pretty dramatic! Maybe too much so but something was clearly wrong - well at least to me.

    Learning to Photograph Mountain Scenery - Continued Part 2

    I can't offer any reasons why this might happen other than maybe not concentrating on a basically decent image from normal raw adjustments and doing other things to try and correct this. I'm guessing really though so pass. And the colours still don't look entirely correct to me. The softlight layer will have boosted contrast which may not have helped but had far less effect than the levels change.

    John
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    Re: Learning to Photograph Mountain Scenery - Continued Part 2

    Christina, I hesitated to comment on this thread because I think that, based on this thread and your previous landscape one, you are in a place that is all to familiar to me and I don't have any advice to offer as I feel a bit stuck there myself.

    My take on this is that you have gotten to a point in your imagery where getting things technically correct in camera is not such a challenge anymore and you've advanced your PP skills to a point where you can make a pretty good edit on most images. You friends and family think your images are great and don't understand why your are fussing so much about getting better as they think your images are awesome. But you know (or feel) that something is missing...

    Others have mentioned having a vision (we all have one right?) but it seems that your challenge (and mine) is not being able to express or verbalize it. So, you pop in here and hope that someone will provide the words or maybe that last little technical piece that you are missing to show the world your vision (I know I am guilty of this). At this point it is difficult to even find the right questions to ask because the both the technical and PP check boxes are all pretty much checked to some degree or another. Here is where the frustration creeps in and then you get stuck about where to go next

    I don't have the answer to that question but what I do have is hope that it will come and the persistence to pursue that ever elusive image in my mind. We know you are persistent and it has shown in the ever increasing quality of the shots you post here!

    Lastly, I will say that when shooting landscapes a lot of what you are able to achieve is dependent on Mother Nature and I now realize why people revisit the same landscape locations over and over again. You can be there at the right place AND the right time and still get crappy clouds! (If you have followed my early morning shoots you will get my lame attempt at adding some levity to this issue )

    So maybe, as you said in one of your comments, you need to let these images rest for a while and give what you think that you did wrong with them in your mind have a chance to fade before looking at them again. In the meantime go out and shoot some BIF...we know that is your other passion

    I followed my own advice this weekend and went out to shoot some architecture instead of landscapes just to rest my tired 'landscape brain' a bit. Not sure if I got anything worth a hill of beans yet but I had fun doing it

    Now back to your lovely mountain scenes...like others I think that #4 is the best of the lot due to the lighting but I really like #3 as well if you can sort out the haze. I like Mike's crop on #1 and like Kaye think that Black Tusk is a little to central in your composition on #5.

    Technically John is onto something with his suggestion to use a soft light layer to deal with the haze and increase contrast. I have been experimenting with this PP technique on some of my early morning shots based on a tip Grahame provided in one of my early morning threads. It think that the key with this technique is the opacity of the layer, so play with that and also selective masking of certain areas to taste.

    Anyway, I hope that this comment has helped in you in some way even if it was to let you know that you are not alone in your frustrations. I also hope that I didn't project too much of 'my stuff' onto you and your struggles to find your vision. If I did I apologize.

    Keep snapping my friend it will all come together at some point, hopefully sooner than later!
    Last edited by ShaneS; 1st September 2014 at 06:05 PM.

  5. #25
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    Re: Learning to Photograph Mountain Scenery - Continued Part 2

    Hi John,

    Thank you for sharing and demonstrating your edit. The colours are wonky because I post processed the image to minimize the haze as much as possible, selectively adjusting contrast, warmth, and darkening these areas, but less so in other areas.

    I'm going to set these images aside and revisit in a months time. When I do if I find any that I like, I will try your soft light suggestion, along with Mike's b&w suggestion and post in a new thread. Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by ajohnw View Post
    I had a look at No1 Christina mostly because Mike missed out another way of dealing with mist in a limited way that is quick to do. All I did was duplicate the layer and set it to soft light. The effect can be varied by adjusting the opacity. I thought around 70% was about right. One thing that struck me was that the general colouration looked rather strange so as you can try the soft light layer your self my immediate thought was take a look at the channels in levels. They did look a bit weird. Given suitable conditions R, G and B will have very similar spans and positions in the input histogram that I hope your levels displays. One adjustment that can work is to move the input end pointers on each channel so that they just touch each end of their histograms and leave the output span at it's default setting or adjust it later. Often it isn't as simple as this and varying amounts of "space" has to be left between the pointers and the histogram ends and one or more channels may need leaving as they are. As I am not keen on trying to sort this sort of thing out if it is messed up some how I just hit auto levels. This made some pretty substantial changes in the per channel settings. The effects are pretty dramatic! Maybe too much so but something was clearly wrong - well at least to me.

    Learning to Photograph Mountain Scenery - Continued Part 2

    I can't offer any reasons why this might happen other than maybe not concentrating on a basically decent image from normal raw adjustments and doing other things to try and correct this. I'm guessing really though so pass. And the colours still don't look entirely correct to me. The softlight layer will have boosted contrast which may not have helped but had far less effect than the levels change.

    John
    -

  6. #26
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    Re: Learning to Photograph Mountain Scenery - Continued Part 2

    Hi Shane,

    Just to say I truly appreciate your taking the time to share, and advise. Your commentary is indeed very helpful, especially because it has been written from a personal point of view. I feel much better knowing that my challenges and frustrations are shared by others like you. Indeed I will keep at it, after taking a short break.

    A special thank you, to you! (Adorned with a BIG hug)

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneS View Post
    Christina, I hesitated to comment on this thread because I think that, based on this thread and your previous landscape one, you are in a place that is all to familiar to me and I don't have any advice to offer as I feel a bit stuck there myself.

    My take on this is that you have gotten to a point in your imagery where getting things technically correct in camera is not such a challenge anymore and you've advanced your PP skills to a point where you can make a pretty good edit on most images. You friends and family think your images are great and don't understand why your are fussing so much about getting better as they think your images are awesome. But you know (or feel) that something is missing...

    Others have mentioned having a vision (we all have one right?) but it seems that your challenge (and mine) is not being able to express or verbalize it. So, you pop in here and hope that someone will provide the words or maybe that last little technical piece that you are missing to show the world your vision (I know I am guilty of this). At this point it is difficult to even find the right questions to ask because the both the technical and PP check boxes are all pretty much checked to some degree or another. Here is where the frustration creeps in and then you get stuck about where to go next

    I don't have the answer to that question but what I do have is hope that it will come and the persistence to pursue that ever elusive image in my mind. We know you are persistent and it has shown in the ever increasing quality of the shots you post here!

    Lastly, I will say that when shooting landscapes a lot of what you are able to achieve is dependent on Mother Nature and I now realize why people revisit the same landscape locations over and over again. You can be there at the right place AND the right time and still get crappy clouds! (If you have followed my early morning shoots you will get my lame attempt at adding some levity to this issue )

    So maybe, as you said in one of your comments, you need to let these images rest for a while and give what you think that you did wrong with them in your mind have a chance to fade before looking at them again. In the meantime go out and shoot some BIF...we know that is your other passion

    I followed my own advice this weekend and went out to shoot some architecture instead of landscapes just to rest my tired 'landscape brain' a bit. Not sure if I got anything worth a hill of beans yet but I had fun doing it

    Now back to your lovely mountain scenes...like others I think that #4 is the best of the lot due to the lighting but I really like #3 as well if you can sort out the haze. I like Mike's crop on #1 and like Kaye think that Black Tusk is a little to central in your composition on #5.

    Technically John is onto something with his suggestion to use a soft light layer to deal with the haze and increase contrast. I have been experimenting with this PP technique on some of my early morning shots based on a tip Grahame provided in one of my early morning threads. It think that the key with this technique is the opacity of the layer, so play with that and also selective masking of certain areas to taste.

    Anyway, I hope that this comment has helped in you in some way even if it was to let you know that you are not alone in your frustrations. I also hope that I didn't project too much of 'my stuff' onto you and your struggles to find your vision. If I did I apologize.

    Keep snapping my friend it will all come together at some point, hopefully sooner than later!

  7. #27
    Moderator Manfred M's Avatar
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    Re: Learning to Photograph Mountain Scenery - Continued Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by ajohnw View Post
    I had a look at No1 Christina mostly because Mike missed out another way of dealing with mist in a limited way that is quick to do. All I did was duplicate the layer and set it to soft light. The effect can be varied by adjusting the opacity. I thought around 70% was about right. One thing that struck me was that the general colouration looked rather strange so as you can try the soft light layer your self my immediate thought was take a look at the channels in levels. They did look a bit weird. Given suitable conditions R, G and B will have very similar spans and positions in the input histogram that I hope your levels displays. One adjustment that can work is to move the input end pointers on each channel so that they just touch each end of their histograms and leave the output span at it's default setting or adjust it later. Often it isn't as simple as this and varying amounts of "space" has to be left between the pointers and the histogram ends and one or more channels may need leaving as they are. As I am not keen on trying to sort this sort of thing out if it is messed up some how I just hit auto levels. This made some pretty substantial changes in the per channel settings. The effects are pretty dramatic! Maybe too much so but something was clearly wrong - well at least to me.

    Learning to Photograph Mountain Scenery - Continued Part 2

    I can't offer any reasons why this might happen other than maybe not concentrating on a basically decent image from normal raw adjustments and doing other things to try and correct this. I'm guessing really though so pass. And the colours still don't look entirely correct to me. The softlight layer will have boosted contrast which may not have helped but had far less effect than the levels change.

    John
    -
    Interestingly enough, I use a variant this approach as a non-destructive dodge in Photoshop.

    I duplicate the layer and change it to Screen blending mode. I then add a layer mask the blocks the layer from showing (i.e. black layer mask). I then paint it with white using a soft brush with a very low opacity (~ 15%) until I get the image looking the way I want it to. Not light enough; I will duplicate this layer; sometimes multiple times. Too bright; I wll decrease the opacity of the top-most layer.

    I use a similar technique for a non-destructive burn; except I use Multiply blending mode.

  8. #28
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    Re: Learning to Photograph Mountain Scenery - Continued Part 2

    Your PP is often excellent Christina so you shouldn't be disheartened the main problem really for a lot of people is that shots offer different challenges.

    On Mikes dealing with mist given what my levels did I wonder if you made best use of curves. I understand ACR has 2 types the parametric one is probably easier to use - sliders - as tiny changes in the points one can have large effects and it's easier to get into a mess.

    Local sharpening - I would be inclined to play with radius setting. Larger ones tend to have a lot more contrast effect but will also wreck clouds and probably introduce noise in flat areas like the sky.

    Just in case there is a decent tutorial on ACR curves kicking around on this site. it doesn't really explain the increase in slope ( steeper ) = increase in contrast but does show some half decent examples on a still life.

    http://www.sally-jane.co.uk/tutorial...acr-tools.html



    John
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    Last edited by ajohnw; 1st September 2014 at 10:09 PM.

  9. #29
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    Re: Learning to Photograph Mountain Scenery - Continued Part 2

    Manfred...

    Thank you for sharing your PP techniques. I will make a note to try these filters and your suggestions.

    John...

    Thank you.I've been using the parametric curve. I will check out the sliders. I did use LCE on these images Radius 20 Amount 100, on the misty areas, and will continue to explore the use of LCE.

    Also thank you for the curves tutorial. I will review this today.

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    Re: Learning to Photograph Mountain Scenery - Continued Part 2

    Hi Christina,

    I'm just catching up and have managed to find time to read this one through carefully

    Of the images No 1 is my preferred, I get the feeling for some reason it has more scope in PP but not as per the edits undertaken so far. Unfortunately I'm unable to open your files as I would have liked to practice the procedure I now use for my seascapes on it.

    Shane has made some very valid points and it really comes down to being there at the right time and also being lucky. How often do you see mountain scenes posted here that have that 'WOW' factor? If you look at pictures of mountain scenes the ones that stand out will be due to lighting and scene clarity (unless haze/mist is used for advantage) and not particularly due to composition in my opinion.

    What is also understandable is that after having made the considerable effort to go out and take these shots you get home and find that there is not one that you can instantly look at and shout WOW, yes technically good but not what you know is achievable in the right conditions. The answer here is to simply use the best to practice and experiment your PP skills.

    There will be lots of advice re PP methods but whatever route or process is taken the result has to be one that meets how you want that image seen.

    Grahame

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    Re: Learning to Photograph Mountain Scenery - Continued Part 2

    Christina - the next stage in your development as a photographer is to hone your post-processing skills. Once you have done this, you will start recognizing images that are "keepers" that need a bit of tweaking to turn them from a so-so looking shot to one that you love.

    If the composition and execution are good, it's amazing what a bit of tweaking in post will do for you. I've seen too many pictures where the only thing wrong with them is the black point and / or white point are off.

  12. #32

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    Re: Learning to Photograph Mountain Scenery - Continued Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver View Post
    I've seen too many pictures where the only thing wrong with them is the black point and / or white point are off.
    Completely agree. Watch that histogram for guidance!

  13. #33
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    Re: Learning to Photograph Mountain Scenery - Continued Part 2

    Grahame...

    Thank you for sharing. At this point in time I would be happy not not to see another mountainscape for eons... I'm still sore from all the hiking and climbing, and losing my tripod up there... The only way to capture the beautiful morning light is to camp there and now that I've seen how fast black bears climb trees I am a wee bit nervous about camping.

    I am going to send you the raw file for that image. If you still feel so inclined you're most welcome to play with it. Did I mention that I like high key and dreamy? Honestly, any edit will likely be an improvement on mine, so feel free to do with it as you please.

    Mike and Manfred... Thank you for advising. I keep avoiding raising the black point in post processing because I hope to create dreamy, light images (ie; not too dark) but I will figure it out, eventually. Until that time I will raise the black point, and perhaps I can manage to do both.

    Manfred... Yes, I realize that even though I have learned quite a bit about post processing, I have so much more to learn about it, and how important it is. So I will make this one of my primary goals for this year.

    Thank you.

  14. #34

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    Re: Learning to Photograph Mountain Scenery - Continued Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Christina S View Post
    I keep avoiding raising the black point in post processing because I hope to create dreamy, light images (ie; not too dark) but I will figure it out, eventually.
    The key is to recognize the scene that either is dreamy from the outset or can be made dreamy during post-processing. Your comment makes me think that you're trying to make a scene dreamy that was neither dreamy nor is a prime candidate for being made dreamy.

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    Re: Learning to Photograph Mountain Scenery - Continued Part 2

    What is the definition of dreamy?

    When I am sitting with my wife, also my best friend, and both of us are drinking a world-class wine observing the most beautiful scenery imaginable as was the case recently in Lofoten, Norway, we were in a dream-like state. However, the mountain scene that we were observing wasn't dreamy itself and was not a prime candidate for being converted to a dreamy photo.

    The moral of the story: separate your emotions experienced at the time from the characteristics of the scene being photographed.

  16. #36
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    Re: Learning to Photograph Mountain Scenery - Continued Part 2

    Hi Cristina,

    Not sure what 'dreamy' actually is with this image but I now know what 'frustration' is

    I spent a couple of hours on this one trying to do something with it that was not 'over the top' as an exercise and it beat me. In the end I simply used Elements 'Smart Fix', some basic 'Levels' and sharpening and it was better than anything I achieved using blend modes, layers, gradients and masks. My PP skills for this type of image have a long way to go, assuming it can be improved?

    A couple of observations I made;

    a) I am normally able to easily use 50% noise removal in ACR on the RAW but for this image any noise removal immediately blurred it and I can only think this was due to the haze?

    b) The image has a heavy vignette which I find surprising for the 18-20mm at 90mm?

    Learning to Photograph Mountain Scenery - Continued Part 2


    Grahame

  17. #37
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    Re: Learning to Photograph Mountain Scenery - Continued Part 2

    Your instant fix wasn't as aggressive as the one I used Grahame.

    I'd guess several people might fancy a go at this raw file.

    One thought for Christina - I took a shot recently and wasn't happy with the clouds even before I took it so photo'd some clouds as well. Haven't tried to do anything with them yet. Another areas for some experimentation as are cloud brushes.

    I don't find the clouds in this shot offensive though.

    John
    -

  18. #38

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    Re: Learning to Photograph Mountain Scenery - Continued Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Stagecoach View Post
    b) The image has a heavy vignette which I find surprising for the 18-20mm at 90mm?
    No doubt about it. I'm shocked that one can see anything when attempting a focal length of 90mm when the lens only reaches to 20.

  19. #39
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    Re: Learning to Photograph Mountain Scenery - Continued Part 2

    Out of curiosity I tried to put some of the mistiness back into the contrasty version - over done and no local area type lighting changes.

    Learning to Photograph Mountain Scenery - Continued Part 2

    Reduced colouration and contrast but a large part of the effect was simply dragging the white end of the curve down leaving a straight line. Not much either.

    Then taking that I made a slight change to the gamma using the centre pointer in levels. Mid tone contrast changes after a fashion. Gamma redistributes the bits allocated for each EV in the shot. Curves does too but levels can be easier to use.

    Learning to Photograph Mountain Scenery - Continued Part 2

    What I am sort of saying when converting raw go for the best possible image 1st and add the look if wanted later. All sorts of things can be done to image if it's basically sound. Saturation, contrast and curves setting could easily enhance mist as the first shot shows and they all inter react after a fashion and if a too contrasty colourful image emerges from raw it can be changed later.

    Colin threw in an interesting aspect of making further changes - leave room in the histogram for them if they are needed. Levels can make that aspect easier.

    Having said this I have some misty shots that I can't cure - yet - so I am going to try selective sharpening as has been suggested not local contrast. Also in this case Christina's raw development may not have altered the outcome.

    Some might notice a bit of banding in these 2 shots - it's really been through the mill so hardly surprising. Original --> high contrast --> soft again --> as I like it maybe. I feel a slightly soft sombre majestic looks suits it. Others probably wont see it like that.

    John
    -

  20. #40
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    Re: Learning to Photograph Mountain Scenery - Continued Part 2

    The Sound of Music - "Climb every mountain!"

    Thank you as always. If the wildflowers had not already been past their prime, the scenery at hand would have been dreamier. Perhaps I will try draping some fog over the mountain images I captured.

    I will work on being more objective about my future mountain scenes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Buckley View Post
    What is the definition of dreamy?

    When I am sitting with my wife, also my best friend, and both of us are drinking a world-class wine observing the most beautiful scenery imaginable as was the case recently in Lofoten, Norway, we were in a dream-like state. However, the mountain scene that we were observing wasn't dreamy itself and was not a prime candidate for being converted to a dreamy photo.

    The moral of the story: separate your emotions experienced at the time from the characteristics of the scene being photographed.

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