A moment for reflection

[pnodrog]

I note we have a report symbol at the bottom left of every post. It is easily unnoticed and should perhaps be bigger or in red.

Every now and again in a hurry or late at night or just when I am intent on making a point I make a post that when I read it latter realise it may have been said better or more clearly. Most of us are photographers and lay no claim to great literacy skills. Writing clearly and unambiguously takes a lot of care, time, proof reading followed by judicious editing. It is very difficult to have a reasonably interactive forum and not expect some misunderstanding due to more or less off the cuff responses.


One thing I do find is the forum often goes off on a technical tangent which has almost nothing to do with creative photography. The quotes below indicate we should be far more concerned with the art of photography rather than the technology.


Brooke Jensen:

“Photography must ask the great questions of life, which ultimately does not include, ‘Which camera did you use?’”



Lucas Gentry:

"Photography has nothing to do with cameras."



Sam Abell:

“It matters little how much equipment we use; it matters much that we be masters of all we do use.”



Elliot Erwitt:

“Photography is an art of observation. It’s about finding something interesting in an ordinary place. I’ve found it has little to do with the things you see and every thing to do with the way you see them.”

[Colin Southern]

I note we have a report symbol at the bottom left of every post. It is easily unnoticed and should perhaps be bigger or in red.

Nooo - please noooo. We get enough alerts fired through with "the reason the user gave" being "I really like that one - lovely eyes - great capture"! (stand down - stand down - stand done - all engines return to the station - another false alarm).

[pnodrog]

Nooo - please noooo. We get enough alerts fired through with "the reason the user gave" being "I really like that one - lovely eyes - great capture"! (stand down - stand down - stand done - all engines return to the station - another false alarm).

Immediately a misunderstanding.. It never occurred to me that it would be used in such a manner. A pity - we have a thumbs up response but not any method of a thumbs down response. I have a few times used a PM (private message) to either clarify or request clarification of a post but I can understand some people maybe reluctant to use such a method.

P.S. Please do not get upset Colin I know you know what a PM is in the context of this forum....

[Mike Buckley]

Perhaps the phrase, "Report Post," that is displayed when hovering over the icon should be changed to something that more clearly indicates the situation when that particular tool is to be used. Maybe the phrase, "Report Violation," or something similar would more accurately indicate to users when to use that capability.

[Colin Southern]

I would ask members to have a read and take a moment to reflect on what has been written below.

A member has sent me a Private Message asking me to terminate their registration on the forum. They have set out the reasons why. There have been a few threads of late where, I have to admit, I would share the sentiment.

"Everyone has, and should be allowed their own style of posting, but I find the forum is becoming more a place for intolerant argument about hardware and software and less a place to learn to be a better photographer.

I have valued CiC because it is one of the few forums dedicated to photographic skills improvement. At present, however, it seems to be some of the knowledgeable members who, to my mind, are less tolerant of the opinions of others: too much "do it this way; only an idiot would do it any other way" rather than "try this, it works for me, as I can show in this photograph".

CiC has always been fortunate in being amongst the forums in which this is less of an issue than in others. However, we shouldn't be complacent.

I'm not asking for responses, comments. I'm just presenting this as something upon which folk might like to reflect. Thanks for taking the time to read this message.

For what it's worth, here's my [arrogant] reflection on it ...

I learned a long time ago that no matter how I conduct myself in life, I can never please everybody; when I try, I usually end up pleasing nobody. And as one who is getting older, busier, and grumpier, I'm not ashamed to say that I'm not here to "please people" - I'm here to pass on knowledge and experience - and I'm here to help; to help people learn, and to help people with their photography. And I think I'm pretty effective at doing that.

If people want that help - at the price they're paying me for it - then I feel that they need to grant me a little latitude to choose the style by which I choose to deliver it - or at least accept that perhaps I do it the way I do for a reason (perhaps even a reason that is in their best interests). That probably sounds pretty arrogant; it's not intended to be (as such) - and generally I feel that what I deliver is delivered in a straight-forward and honest way - but what I will add though is that if someone chooses to "take issue" with me (and lets be honest, probably at least 1/2 of the original member quote is aimed squarely at me) then they'll probably get a response right back, with the nature of that response being pretty much in the same tone as what's been sent my way in the first place. If people want to present things from a different perspective then that's great - lets have a discussion about that - that's how we learn. If however they want to just "take aim and pull the trigger" then be prepared for something coming back the other way. As arrogant as it sounds, I'm sure that a surgeon would get pretty grumpy with a first-aider telling them that they don't know what they're talking about - as would any formula 1 driver being told how to drive a race car by someone with only a car licence; there is a wealth of experience here - members with doctorates in photography - members who have spent a lifetime shooting professionally - those who have been published in prestigious places - those who's names appear in movie credits - those who currently do this stuff day in and day out - and by golly, those folks deserve to be treated with respect - we've earned it. Does that put a few "noses out of joint"? - yep - probably. Does that make for a "happy little community"? Nope - probably not. Is it the reality of the situation? - yes it is in my opinion.

My personal priority is the passing of knowledge and experience - not group hugs and kisses. If some people don't like that then perhaps this isn't the place for them and they should move on (can't please everyone); If a lot of people don't like that then perhaps this isn't the place for me - let me know and I'll move on (but I'll tell you now - if it's photography you're trying to improve, that won't do ANYTHING to improve it).

Sorry if this isn't what some people want to read, but it's 11:45pm here - I've been working about 16 hours so far today (including professional studio shooting) and I'm tired and grumpy (again).

[Colin Southern]

Perhaps the phrase, "Report Post," that is displayed when hovering over the icon should be changed to something that more clearly indicates the situation when that particular tool is to be used. Maybe the phrase, "Report Violation," or something similar would more accurately indicate to users when to use that capability.

What I've seen in another site - which I like - is a HUGE "STOP" sign - followed by detailed text of "read this before continuing" etc - then a "click here if you still want to etc.

[davidedric]

I fully agree with you Donald. Thanks for the heads up.

Dave

[flashback]

...there is a wealth of experience here - members with doctorates in photography - members who have spent a lifetime shooting professionally - those who have been published in prestigious places - those who's names appear in movie credits - those who currently do this stuff day in and day out - and by golly, those folks deserve to be treated with respect - we've earned it. Does that put a few "noses out of joint"? - yep - probably. Does that make for a "happy little community"? Nope - probably not. Is it the reality of the situation? - yes it is in my opinion.

Collin, I have to agree, you do come off as arrogant. I've no problem with people offering advice, sharing their expertise and even, on occasion their wisdom. But perhaps if you were to deign to descend from that rather high albedo equine you're perched upon you might realize that there are quite likely just as many, if not more people here with equal or greater experience in areas NOT photography. I mean, good on anyone that can make a living out of photography but really, portraits and commercial work; just how much are you saving the world doing that? Sorry if that comes off arrogant but then, to me photography is simply a hobby someone has managed to make a living from, I think it's great but really, movie credits and doctorates? How do you know there aren't world famous surgeons, crack physicists or literary geniuses here as well, all with an interest in photography.

I learned a long time ago to be appreciative (note: not grateful, not thankful and certainly not obsequious) of the time, advice and wisdom someone is willing to share. But if that person can only share in way that comes across as condescending and patronizing then whatever it is they may be able to share is going to be lost on me and they're welcome to keep their sage advice to themselves.

Perhaps it is just that bit of I'm-successful-at-this-and-so-I-can-afford-to-be-arrogant mentality that is exactly the problem. I have no doubt that there are many quite successful members here, likely some of whom have made a lasting mark in the world "...and by golly, those folks deserve to be treated with respect..." Oh wait, most of us here just ask for C&C, discuss our interest(s) and enjoy; maybe we should all include our CVs, you know, to brag a bit, lord it over others and basically use it as an excuse to be brusque and off-putting, if not boorish. Hopefully no one will take offense at any of what I've written, I mean, I'm very good at the things I do and for that I deserve to be treated...well, as ones better. (it's nearly 9am, I'm not at all tired or even grumpy. Perhaps these things are better left said with an unclear mind...dunno.)

[Mike Buckley]

I always have two choices: learning from people who are nice and enjoyable or learning from people who are rude and arrogant. I choose the former.

I give absolutely no more latitude about that when I'm not paying for the service than when I'm paying for it. I won't tolerate rudeness and arrogance directed toward me regardless of what I'm paying. I've overlooked it in the past here at CiC but I won't in the future.

[Colin Southern]

Collin, I have to agree, you do come off as arrogant. I've no problem with people offering advice, sharing their expertise and even, on occasion their wisdom. But perhaps if you were to deign to descend from that rather high albedo equine you're perched upon you might realize that there are quite likely just as many, if not more people here with equal or greater experience in areas NOT photography. I mean, good on anyone that can make a living out of photography but really, portraits and commercial work; just how much are you saving the world doing that? Sorry if that comes off arrogant but then, to me photography is simply a hobby someone has managed to make a living from, I think it's great but really, movie credits and doctorates? How do you know there aren't world famous surgeons, crack physicists or literary geniuses here as well, all with an interest in photography.

I learned a long time ago to be appreciative (note: not grateful, not thankful and certainly not obsequious) of the time, advice and wisdom someone is willing to share. But if that person can only share in way that comes across as condescending and patronizing then whatever it is they may be able to share is going to be lost on me and they're welcome to keep their sage advice to themselves.

Perhaps it is just that bit of I'm-successful-at-this-and-so-I-can-afford-to-be-arrogant mentality that is exactly the problem. I have no doubt that there are many quite successful members here, likely some of whom have made a lasting mark in the world "...and by golly, those folks deserve to be treated with respect..." Oh wait, most of us here just ask for C&C, discuss our interest(s) and enjoy; maybe we should all include our CVs, you know, to brag a bit, lord it over others and basically use it as an excuse to be brusque and off-putting, if not boorish. Hopefully no one will take offense at any of what I've written, I mean, I'm very good at the things I do and for that I deserve to be treated...well, as ones better. (it's nearly 9am, I'm not at all tired or even grumpy. Perhaps these things are better left said with an unclear mind...dunno.)

Well to be honest Jack, that IS pretty offensive.

The bit you've seemed to overlook is that this is a PHOTOGRAPHY forum. I know for a fact that there are many professionals here from other disciplines - and I'm proud to be able to call several of them friends - but the bottom line is that we're here to improve PHOTOGRAPHY, and not some other discipline. As such, I'm not trying to "save the world with photography" - I am however trying hard - on a photography site for goodness sake - to help people improve their photography.

[Colin Southern]

I always have two choices: learning from people who are nice and enjoyable or learning from people who are rude and arrogant. I choose the former.

I give absolutely no more latitude about that when I'm not paying for the service than when I'm paying for it. I won't tolerate rudeness and arrogance directed toward me regardless of what I'm paying. I've overlooked it in the past here at CiC but I won't in the future.

All I'll say to that Mike is "just remember that you get what you give".

[flashback]

Well to be honest Jack, that IS pretty offensive.

The bit you've seemed to overlook is that this is a PHOTOGRAPHY forum. I know for a fact that there are many professionals here from other disciplines - and I'm proud to be able to call several of them friends - but the bottom line is that we're here to improve PHOTOGRAPHY, and not some other discipline. As such, I'm not trying to "save the world with photography" - I am however trying hard - on a photography site for goodness sake - to help people improve their photography.

Colin, I haven't overlooked anything and I'm well aware of what this site is about. But part of the discussion in this post is how people are treated and by your own admission, "...as one who is getting older, busier, and grumpier, I'm not ashamed to say that I'm not here to "please people"..." may be part of the issue. It's a two-way street in that I'll be nice so long as you be nice. As soon as one person fails in their part then all hell breaks loose. Maybe the bit that you've missed is that there is no excuse for being short, impatient or grumpy with another person in here. In fact if someone is feeling that way perhaps then is a good time to log off and go do something that puts them in a better mood (this holds for people seeking advice, those giving advice and those moderating/administrating the process ;-)

And I couldn't have said it better nor agree more with you that, "...you get what you give".

[Mike Buckley]

And I couldn't have said it better nor agree more with you that, "...you get what you give".

I disagree, Jack. If everyone in a community always feels and acts that way, tensions will increase rather than decrease to the detriment of the entire community. When I'm 100% on my game (which is not always the case), I will try to diffuse a situation by giving a person the benefit of the doubt, by responding in a way that is intended to be less antagonistic (for lack of a better word) than what has been directed toward me, or by not directly responding. Even when that effort is not successful, that fashion is a lot more rewarding and potentially helpful than responding to a rude or arrogant post in a like manner.

[Colin Southern]

In fact if someone is feeling that way perhaps then is a good time to log off and go do something that puts them in a better mood (this holds for people seeking advice, those giving advice and those moderating/administrating the process ;-)

Can't argue with that.

Have fun folks.

[HaseebM]

Isn't this why we have moderators? If the moderation is done immediately perhaps by setting the post invisible and PM the member, such issues will become less.

[flashback]

Mikr, perhaps you misunderstood. While I was quoting something Colin addressed to you, myi interpretation was that if one is nice to others they will be nice in return, the converse being equallly true, to which I agreeed.

I'm not advocating boorish behavior but sometimes there are those that can behave in no other way, in which case a shot fired across their bow can be affective.

[csa mt]

This post is not replying to any one individual, rather the thread. To me, it does not matter how accomplished a person might be or not be; respect is a given both ways. I don't believe this forum wants to run off members without taking a hard look at how we conduct ourselves when we post. Administrators & moderators are held to a higher standard, as they have been selected to make sure the members conduct themselves in an acceptable manner. When one is "grumpy", it's best to push the chair back from the computer, and relax; before posting something that might reflect badly on the forum.

I was a moderator on a forum with over 77,000 members, for several years; so I do know a little bit about different cultures/opinions clashing!

Do we all have to get along and be agreeable with our fellow members? Of course not! But we can be respectful of one another, and when replying to someone, read our post first & ask how we would feel if this post was directed at us!

This is the best photography forum I've been fortunate enough to belong to. I don't believe we have to have a rhino skin in order to learn more from each & every member that chooses to respond to us.

[Mark von Kanel]

Collin, I have to agree, you do come off as arrogant. I've no problem with people offering advice, sharing their expertise and even, on occasion their wisdom. But perhaps if you were to deign to descend from that rather high albedo equine you're perched upon you might realize that there are quite likely just as many, if not more people here with equal or greater experience in areas NOT photography. I mean, good on anyone that can make a living out of photography but really, portraits and commercial work; just how much are you saving the world doing that? Sorry if that comes off arrogant but then, to me photography is simply a hobby someone has managed to make a living from, I think it's great but really, movie credits and doctorates? How do you know there aren't world famous surgeons, crack physicists or literary geniuses here as well, all with an interest in photography.

I learned a long time ago to be appreciative (note: not grateful, not thankful and certainly not obsequious) of the time, advice and wisdom someone is willing to share. But if that person can only share in way that comes across as condescending and patronizing then whatever it is they may be able to share is going to be lost on me and they're welcome to keep their sage advice to themselves.

Perhaps it is just that bit of I'm-successful-at-this-and-so-I-can-afford-to-be-arrogant mentality that is exactly the problem. I have no doubt that there are many quite successful members here, likely some of whom have made a lasting mark in the world "...and by golly, those folks deserve to be treated with respect..." Oh wait, most of us here just ask for C&C, discuss our interest(s) and enjoy; maybe we should all include our CVs, you know, to brag a bit, lord it over others and basically use it as an excuse to be brusque and off-putting, if not boorish. Hopefully no one will take offense at any of what I've written, I mean, I'm very good at the things I do and for that I deserve to be treated...well, as ones better. (it's nearly 9am, I'm not at all tired or even grumpy. Perhaps these things are better left said with an unclear mind...dunno.)

Jack that is Very offensive. you have decided to personally attack someone who has given unstintingly of his time for many years, I have corresponded with him on this forum and he has never been rude or arrogant.

if half of us gave as much of our time and expertise that Colin does this forum would rock.

If you dont like his advice then dont read it or ask for it, but personally ive never known him to be factually incorrect even though youd never catch me dead using bridge or him using `LR but we respect each other opinions even though they are wrong

Jack you should apologise.

[chauncey]

After retiring from a career that booked no errors whatsoever, I've earned the right to be arrogant,
old, grumpy, self-satisfied, with a lack of patience for those with an underdeveloped prefrontal cortex.

For those that want to teach, I don't need to like them, but I will listen to what they say...even if it's
sometimes related in an offensive manner. So what...quit whining, get over it and man-up.

[csa mt]

" I've earned the right to be arrogant,
old, grumpy, self-satisfied, with a lack of patience for those with an underdeveloped prefrontal cortex."

No one has this right, rather it's a choice.