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Thread: Defects printing with EPSON 9890 (attached images)

  1. #1

    Defects printing with EPSON 9890 (attached images)

    Hello, my name is Martín, from Argentina. I have a small and new printing company, we work with an EPSON 9890 44", 9 ink plotter.

    First of all, I´ve been reading tutorials for 2 hours, and I think who wrote them did a great job compiling the most important subjects in a compact but yet efective and clarifying way (I hope this sounds the same in english as in spanish), so thank you.

    I usually print (mostly on cotton canvas) to non professional people who just want to have a memory on canvas. So images are sometimes very poor quality. I ussualy resample them to avoid pixels to be visible and make very little color adjustment to enhance very bright or dark images, and to compensate canvas.

    I print using a generic matte canvas and a generic matte canvas ICC profile. Mostly Relative Colorimetric and black point compensation.

    My problem, with a lot of this images that are poor quality or somtimes not so poor but they have added effects or filters on Picassa or Instagram is that I get a horrible effect when printing that I can´t see at all on the monitor. It seems to be something like a posterization but I´m not sure what is it and how to avoid it.

    For example, the attached files is a couple. Picture was taken and then a filter applied on picasa. When I printed it trying 2 or 3 variations on adjustments black hair was terrible, almost blue, with very defined edges (my printer has k3 inks, 3 different blacks!). The image has very defined areas with no gradation. It is absolutely not posible to see on screen.

    If it was a gammut problem I should see it in the gammut warning, and relative colorimetric should try to make it mostly black I think, not blue.

    I don´t think it´s a printer issue since sometimes I tried the same at home in a Pixma ip4810 (OCP generic inks) and I get a very similar result. On the other hand I get amazing results with good quality photos.

    If this is a common issue or if you can help me avoid it, please let me know.

    Thank you all.

    Martin.

    Defects printing with EPSON 9890 (attached images)
    Defects printing with EPSON 9890 (attached images)

  2. #2

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    Re: Defects printing with EPSON 9890 (attached images)

    Hi Martin,

    I do a lot of professional printing on canvas using a large-format Epson printer.

    First up, we really need to work on the foundations -- you need to be working from a properly calibrated and profiled screen, and you need to have an accurate profile for the printer / ink / media / settings combination that you're using. Do you have access to anything like a Spyder Studio photospectrometer / colorimeter? (without accurate profiles you're going to be shooting at a moving target).

    Next up, I'd really need to see the original file that you're working with - happy to have a look at them for you if you can host them somewhere for me.

  3. #3

    Re: Defects printing with EPSON 9890 (attached images)

    Thank you Colin for your answer.

    I know calibration is essencial. We are still not well calibrated (screens). We are waiting for the equipment to arrive, but in the meantime we are getting very good results on professional media with ICC profiles.

    As I said, this particular canvas printing is on generic cotton canvas and we use a generic ICC profile fot matte canvas, which is not professional at all, I know. Anyway, for this kind of job we are doing, I don´t need extreem color presition, just a fair printing quality.

    Here´s a link so you can download original image: http://rapidshare.com/share/4732499C...B6322B2AAFF06B

    I´ve been taking a look to some images and I think more and more its posterization. Is it possible?. In that case, do histogram fixers like PowerRetouche plugin solve the problem?

    Thank you,

    Martin

    Thank you again for your help.

  4. #4

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    Re: Defects printing with EPSON 9890 (attached images)

    Hi Martin,

    In my opinion, you've basically got 3 problems, with each building on the other.

    First up, the original is basically just a crappy-quality capture - I'm guessing from a point and shoot, judging by the shadow detail issues. Not much you can do about that.

    Second up, the image needs some serious adjustments to even get it in the ballpark - in particular black point, white point, colour cast, gamma, and sharpening

    Third, I suspect that your printer profile is considerably out of whack with regards to it's low tone reproduction, which is accentuating the above issues.

    I've adjusted the supplied image in ACR / Photoshop to fix the levels / colour cast / sharpening issues as best I can, but without a known spectrally neutral reference, it's a guess at best. I suspect that there's some mixed lighting in there just to make things harder as well.

    With regards to the printer profile, the "A" answer is to get your own gear - climb the slippery slope - and learn how to do your own profiles. The "B" answer is to have a custom profile made for you. The "F" answer is to use a generic profile (sounds a bit harsh, but they can be all over the place). One trick you can try is to use a profile for a generic heavy-weight paper such as the Epson PLPP260 that's probably in your list of profiles -- often it's "close enough".

    The problem with canvas is that it has a very high black point (you can print over it with black ink and still measure 18% reflectivity) (unsprayed) so standard profiling software will say "well, it 18% is "black" and 95% is white, lets scale everything between those points, and what you get is a mess -- so basically you need to lie to it a bit paper profiles will have black reflectivity in the region of 4% (far far far blacker).

    Try printing the image I've fixed, but with another profile, on canvas. Be sure to disable printer colour control and let the program (Photoshop?) handle it.

    Let me know how you get on.

    Hope this helps.

    Defects printing with EPSON 9890 (attached images)

  5. #5

    Re: Defects printing with EPSON 9890 (attached images)

    Thank you Colin!, I didn't expect you to adjust my file.

    I know the file is creepy, mos of the files I get to make those Canvas are from people who know nothing about color, printing or anything related. So I deal everyday with this kind of photos I have to adjust to make them at least almost decent.

    I´ll be printing in a few hours, then I´ll let you know.

    Any suggestion about relative or absolute colorimetric?, black point comp.? , perceptual?

  6. #6

    Re: Defects printing with EPSON 9890 (attached images)

    Here´s the result. Way better, but still defective around man's beard and eyebrows.

    Thank you again

    Defects printing with EPSON 9890 (attached images)

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    Re: Defects printing with EPSON 9890 (attached images)

    Quote Originally Posted by martin100181 View Post
    Any suggestion about relative or absolute colorimetric?, black point comp.? , perceptual?
    I use Relative Colorimetric pretty much 100% of the time. BPC on. Again, it comes down to the accuracy of your profile.

    Normally I'll clip the blacks by around 8 levels, and whites by about the same, but that's with an image will good tonality to start with; with images like yours it's always going to be a compromise. One "trick" with image like that it to push the exposure up a stop (which helps the blacks), and then bring the brightness (midtones) down until the skin looks right - then a touch of highlight recovery if needed to deal to any small but significant areas of blown highlight.

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    Re: Defects printing with EPSON 9890 (attached images)

    Quote Originally Posted by martin100181 View Post
    Here´s the result. Way better, but still defective around man's beard and eyebrows.

    Thank you again

    Defects printing with EPSON 9890 (attached images)
    What profile did you use?

    If you try printing on paper - with a paper profile - and the result is OK then the issue is with your profile. I had one that used to do that -- was basically just a faulty profile. Canvas does take some getting used to. Also, you MUST overspray the canvas afterwards to improve the contrast and give it UV protection and abrasion resistance (I use ClearStar Liquid Laminate in a HVLP sprayer).

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    Re: Defects printing with EPSON 9890 (attached images)

    PS: The other technique I use is to say to the customer "To be honest, this image has quite a few issues that make it less then ideal for printing -- how about I take some shots for you with my fancy gear?"

  10. #10

    Re: Defects printing with EPSON 9890 (attached images)

    Thank you Colin, what is exactly "push the exposure up a stop"?

  11. #11

    Re: Defects printing with EPSON 9890 (attached images)

    Quote Originally Posted by Colin Southern View Post
    What profile did you use?

    If you try printing on paper - with a paper profile - and the result is OK then the issue is with your profile. I had one that used to do that -- was basically just a faulty profile. Canvas does take some getting used to. Also, you MUST overspray the canvas afterwards to improve the contrast and give it UV protection and abrasion resistance (I use ClearStar Liquid Laminate in a HVLP sprayer).
    I used PLPP260 as you suggested, I´ll try to print a test on paper and see what happens.

    In case it works on paper, what should I do?, this canvas is generic, no brand no profile. I don´t know how to make a profile and I think is not worth to pay for someone to make the profile for me because next roll could be different. Is there any way to tweak profiles to solve this issues?

  12. #12

    Re: Defects printing with EPSON 9890 (attached images)

    Quote Originally Posted by Colin Southern View Post
    PS: The other technique I use is to say to the customer "To be honest, this image has quite a few issues that make it less then ideal for printing -- how about I take some shots for you with my fancy gear?"
    I'd love to! but most of the customer looking for this product have images like thisone, so I need to fix as much problems as possible to sell, if not, I have to send 80% of customers home. Sometimes they have another good image, but sometimes not.

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    Re: Defects printing with EPSON 9890 (attached images)

    Quote Originally Posted by martin100181 View Post
    Thank you Colin, what is exactly "push the exposure up a stop"?
    In ACR (Adobe Camera RAW) it's a control that shifts all the tones. Pushing it up a stop is the "equivalent" of making everything 1 stop brighter (which helps open up the shadows), but it also mucks up the skin tones -- hence the use of the brightness control to drag them back down, but without affecting the shadows. It also pushes the highlights, but in most cases it just pushes the image into the safety margin that most camera metering gives anyway (that needs to be eliminated in post production).

    So the net result is better shadow detail - better contrast on faces - and a closer white clipping point.

    You need to be working from a calibrated and profiled monitor though, as it essentially removes most of the "safety margin", but definitely makes for a better image. I do it as a matter of course on all my portraiture (did it to your example too).

    What PP software are you using?

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    Re: Defects printing with EPSON 9890 (attached images)

    Quote Originally Posted by martin100181 View Post
    I used PLPP260 as you suggested, I´ll try to print a test on paper and see what happens.

    In case it works on paper, what should I do?, this canvas is generic, no brand no profile. I don´t know how to make a profile and I think is not worth to pay for someone to make the profile for me because next roll could be different. Is there any way to tweak profiles to solve this issues?
    See if it works on paper first. Also, make sure that your media settings are correct -- the ink may be saturating the canvas in those darkest areas. Feel free to post screen shots of all your printer job settings from the print driver if it helps -- I might be able to spot something.

    My STRONG suggestion is to stick with one brand/type of canvas so you get to know it. I always use Sihl canvas - about a 360gsm off memory (can get you the part number if you need it) - it's been truly excellent. Unfortunately, you're about to enter an area where there is only ONE optimal way to print and DOZENS of ways to stuff it up. The learning curve can be steep, but there aren't any shortcuts. If you don't have good software (and know how to use it) for fixing and retouching the images - and you don't have a calibrated and profiled monitor - and you don't have accurate printer profiles - and you don't stick to the same stock (or the quality is variable) - and you don't over-spray ... then you'll be forever chasing your tail with inconsistent and sub-optimal results.

    Then again, if you've made a sizable investment in the printer, why would you stop short of doing the far less expensive things that make 95% of the difference?

    PS: Yes, profiles can be tweaked, but usually the best software for doing that is the same software that creates them in the first place. You're going to need to get your own gear for doing them -- realistically, there's no cost-effective way to avoid it. Plus, something like a Spyder Print doesn't cost much (compared to the printer and the $$$ you'll lose through lost business if you produce crappy work).
    Last edited by Colin Southern; 5th November 2013 at 08:01 PM.

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    Re: Defects printing with EPSON 9890 (attached images)

    Hello Colin,

    Just bought a 9890, and enjoyed your information. Actually, after dealing w/ a "filter fail" error, and after several boots and reboots, just installed it right to print my first image. That being said, reading threads like this inspire to respect the need for "perfection"….So I like your idea of using Spyder Print…Look forward to learning more from you and the other contributors.

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    Re: Defects printing with EPSON 9890 (attached images)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bennyo View Post
    Hello Colin,

    Just bought a 9890, and enjoyed your information. Actually, after dealing w/ a "filter fail" error, and after several boots and reboots, just installed it right to print my first image. That being said, reading threads like this inspire to respect the need for "perfection"….So I like your idea of using Spyder Print…Look forward to learning more from you and the other contributors.
    Hi Bennyo - congratulations on your purchase - that's a pretty big printer you've got there. You'll definitely need a spectrophotometer like the Spyder Print, unless you went with the optional accessory when you bought the printer. If you're doing colour work then you also need to ensure you're working from a calibrated and profiled monitor (Spyder make a colorimeter for that).

  17. #17

    Re: Defects printing with EPSON 9890 (attached images)

    Quote Originally Posted by Colin Southern View Post
    In ACR (Adobe Camera RAW) it's a control that shifts all the tones. Pushing it up a stop is the "equivalent" of making everything 1 stop brighter (which helps open up the shadows), but it also mucks up the skin tones -- hence the use of the brightness control to drag them back down, but without affecting the shadows. It also pushes the highlights, but in most cases it just pushes the image into the safety margin that most camera metering gives anyway (that needs to be eliminated in post production).

    So the net result is better shadow detail - better contrast on faces - and a closer white clipping point.

    You need to be working from a calibrated and profiled monitor though, as it essentially removes most of the "safety margin", but definitely makes for a better image. I do it as a matter of course on all my portraiture (did it to your example too).

    What PP software are you using?
    Hello again COlin, I´ve been using ACR since your advice. It's really great tool to enhance JPG or other compressed files.

    Today I was reading again your comment about that method you described by shifting tones and the correcting with bright. Would you mind helping me indentify which is exactly that tone and bright control (there are many on ACR) and what is exactly 1 stop?

    Thank you

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    Re: Defects printing with EPSON 9890 (attached images)

    Martin,

    What was your printing experience (industry and printer types) prior to purchasing the 9890?

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    Re: Defects printing with EPSON 9890 (attached images)

    Quote Originally Posted by martin100181 View Post
    Hello again COlin, I´ve been using ACR since your advice. It's really great tool to enhance JPG or other compressed files.

    Today I was reading again your comment about that method you described by shifting tones and the correcting with bright. Would you mind helping me indentify which is exactly that tone and bright control (there are many on ACR) and what is exactly 1 stop?

    Thank you
    Hi Martin,

    ACR has a number of process versions, which in-turn change the controls available. The latest process version is 2012, but I prefer 2010 for most things, which will give you the brightness slider on the general tab.

    To go to the 2010 process version, just select it from the camera calibration tab - from there you can go back to the general tab and increase exposure / decrease brightness using those two sliders.

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