Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 29

Thread: The truth

  1. #1

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Dunedin New Zealand
    Posts
    2,697
    Real Name
    J stands for John

    The truth

    In a recent thread was the comment about after fifty years how many students taught had made the grade in photography.
    Fifty years and a bit more takes me back to when I was earning my living from still photography and even then it was said there were three times as many photographers as really needed ... that was before the explosion in numbers of cameras.
    I wonder how many tutors tell their students to get a 'day job' to pay for their passion?

    In my younger days there were two photo schools in the UK ... Now?
    Passing on information is a good thing but encouraging people into an over crowded carear?

  2. #2
    DDK's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    50
    Real Name
    Djoran

    Re: The truth

    Quote Originally Posted by jcuknz View Post
    I wonder how many tutors tell their students to get a 'day job' to pay for their passion?
    When I had just turned eighteen I enrolled myself into a mature-age degree in order to learn professional writing and editing. The idea being that it would give me the credits needed to go to university and get a Bachelor's in the arts, since I didn't have a high-school diploma (homelessness, drugs, etc.)

    About three months into the course we had a guest speaker who was an industry professional. He had sold numerous scripts on a very successful TV show. He told us in no uncertain terms that the film industry and writing industries were incredibly hard to break into and that the likelihood of any of us in that class making a living from it was closer to zero than it was to one.

    Over the next nine months of the first year of that degree (it was a two year degree), that speech stuck with me. I asked around, spoke to some wannabe writers, some friends who were already 'in' the industry (they had paid gigs as actors and directors and writers so technically they were professionals, but really, they were gigs that had an audience in the hundreds if they were lucky), and they all pretty much said the same thing. As a day job, find something else.

    Other events in my life made staying in the course difficult and with being despondent over my prospects, I took a full-time night job and left the course. It was the single worst decision (and I've made a LOT of poor decisions) of my life. Ever since then I've lived with a hopeless sense of underachievement. Even when I had success, it wasn't for something in which I had any passion or interest. I put off other aspects of my life to focus on making a career for myself in a realistic profession.

    And it's made me the miserable son-of-a-female-dog I am today.

    Now I'm at a point where I've given up trying to fight against what it is I really want to do and decided that even if I fail at achieving success in photography, writing and film-making, at least I will be failing at something that I have a genuine interest and passion for and not failing at something that gives my life no meaning.

    I'd rather be a failure at something I love than be a success at something I loathe.

    So sure, tutors should inform their students of the realities of the industry, however discouraging them to the point of diverting them into another career helps no-one. If we're in a third-world country where becoming a photographer won't feed you or your family, sure, by all means tell them to pursue something more realistic. But those of us in first-world countries who have the luxury to pursue our dreams should absolutely take full advantage of any opportunity given them, even if it's unrealistic that they'll achieve anything while doing it.

  3. #3
    William W's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Sraylya
    Posts
    3,964
    Real Name
    William (call me Bill)

    Re: The truth

    My initial Diploma is dated circa 1975 – I didn’t learn anything in that course about making money in a business or earning enough as a Freelance Photographer to feed myself. I don’t think all that much has changed in that regard.

    Also, it was not my expectation that a Diploma in Photography should teach me about being good at Business.

    WW

  4. #4
    tomdinning's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Darwin Australia
    Posts
    188
    Real Name
    tom dinning

    Re: The truth

    Quote Originally Posted by William W View Post
    My initial Diploma is dated circa 1975 – I didn’t learn anything in that course about making money in a business or earning enough as a Freelance Photographer to feed myself. I don’t think all that much has changed in that regard.

    Also, it was not my expectation that a Diploma in Photography should teach me about being good at Business.

    WW
    In addition to suggesting to students they should find a job which will pay for their passion I would also suggest they find a job which includes or can incorporate their passion. Teachers using photography as a teaching tool or to inspire others, doctors using photographs to assist their patients, business people advertising their business, artists recording their own work, family members recording their own history etc. it's not necessary to be paid for you passion to make it work for you and enjoy it. If everyone who has a passion for photography became a working photographer there wouldn't be much room on the planet for much else.
    That said, it often takes time for a young person to determine what they might like to do and have the skills to do it well and earn a living. There is often a developmental phase through which they will pass. Some of that includes paying the mortgage, understanding the business, establishing a style or genre they like and are good at it, accumulating the equipment, getting experience at dealing with people etc. this can often be achieved in a place where the stress of making a living as compared to earning a living is eliminated or at least eased. Mental preparation pis also needed. A mature brain makes better decisions than one which is less so, most of the time.
    As with people who have paid their dues, they can often make better decisions.

  5. #5
    Administrator Manfred M's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    12,988
    Real Name
    Manfred Mueller

    Re: The truth

    Unfortunately, this situation is not restricted to photography and is something related to what I refer to as the post-secondary education industry; i.e. the community colleges and universities churning out people with diplomas and degrees in subjects where there is little hope of getting reasonable full-time employment.

    If you look at the number of people graduating with degrees (bachelors, masters and doctorates) or diplomas in fields like architecture, philosophy, teaching, archaeology, law etc. The list goes on and on. The province where I live announced this week that they will be cutting the number of admissions to Teacher’s College in half over the next couple of years and doubling the length of the course from one year to two years because the supply for new teaching positions far outstrips the number of positions available.

    On the other hand, in spite of the after effects of the economic downturn, there is still a demand for certain professions; accountants, engineers, medical specialists, certain skilled trades, etc.

    While in still in high school, I developed a passion for photography that I still have today. I was ready to follow my dreams and get a career in photography, but fortunately for me, I had other skills as well. My father influenced me (nicely said, twisted my arm is probably closer to the truth) to study engineering instead. Several decades later, I still enjoy photography as a hobby, having a full-time job that lets me afford professional level gear as well as the ability to travel to exotic and less exotic places where I can enjoy my hobbies.

    With the advent of digital photography, I decided to upgrade my skills and started taking some photography and videography courses at the local community college in their “continuing education program”. A couple of things struck me there. We had some first rate professional photographers teaching, and all of them were doing so to supplement their incomes because they could no longer make a go of it purely as photographers. Some were transitioning into speciality work; editing / retouching photos or moving into video.

    The other surprise was the number of people that were looking at getting into the business; retirees, “soccer moms”, people tired of their day jobs. In a class of around 25 people, I was the only two of us there who had no interest in “getting into the business” and were there purely to improve their skill level (the other was a doctor) and were not working on our diploma in photography. The scary part is that he and I were by far the best photographers and had the least formal training of the group. On top of the continuing education class, there is also a full-time two-year diploma course going on as well.

    I think that anyone wanting to get into photography or film making (I’m also a member of the local video co-op full of people wanting to break into that business) needs to have a very major reality check. While there is still room for full-time professional photographers (and I know several that are doing reasonably well), it is getting harder and harder to get into the business and make a decent living at it. There are just too many good semi-pros out there willing to work for pin money that are cutting the bottom out of the market.

  6. #6
    Shadowman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    WNY
    Posts
    31,104
    Real Name
    John

    Re: The truth

    Quote Originally Posted by jcuknz View Post
    In a recent thread was the comment about after fifty years how many students taught had made the grade in photography.
    Fifty years and a bit more takes me back to when I was earning my living from still photography and even then it was said there were three times as many photographers as really needed ... that was before the explosion in numbers of cameras.
    I wonder how many tutors tell their students to get a 'day job' to pay for their passion?

    In my younger days there were two photo schools in the UK ... Now?
    Passing on information is a good thing but encouraging people into an over crowded carear?
    I'm pretty sure "get a day job" was the advice given decades ago also. I mean first you had to purchase the camera and possibly the dark room supplies and then you had to get out there and make an inventory of shots or get clients to sit for you.

  7. #7
    terrib's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Colorado & Texas, USA
    Posts
    2,022
    Real Name
    Terri

    Re: The truth

    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver View Post

    The other surprise was the number of people that were looking at getting into the business; retirees, “soccer moms”, people tired of their day jobs. In a class of around 25 people, I was the only two of us there who had no interest in “getting into the business” and were there purely to improve their skill level (the other was a doctor) and were not working on our diploma in photography. The scary part is that he and I were by far the best photographers and had the least formal training of the group. On top of the continuing education class, there is also a full-time two-year diploma course going on as well.
    Several years ago I took a Beginning Digital Photography class as a refresher for my long unused college class training from the film days. I was amazed at the number of people in this BEGINNER class who already had gigs for important life events like weddings and senior photos and were setting up websites for their business. The ignorance or in some cases just plain arrogance of people is rampant in this area. But that's not just photography. I think many of us look at something someone else does and think "Well I could do that!". But agreeing to shoot someone's wedding when you need a beginner class is irresponsible. Then again, how much responsibility belongs to the provider and how much to the client. But that's probably a whole other thread!

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Lake Ambulalakaw, Mt. Pulag, Benguet
    Posts
    1,026
    Real Name
    Victor Nimitz

    Re: The truth

    Ever since I got my Fujica rangefinder 53yrs ago, I dreamed of doing those fine looking pictures in Look, Popular Mechanics and the iconic NatGeo too. Did a lot of pix for our college newspaper, covered the student unrest of 1968-69. Even got a picture ( Tacub , Mindanao Massacre) onto the front page of the old Philippines Herald newspaper. But realities of marriage/a growing family forced me to get a better paying job and cut short any dreams of making a living from photography. At least, now retired, got a lot of time to finally focus on my fav hobby.


  9. #9
    Glenn NK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Victoria BC
    Posts
    1,510

    Re: The truth

    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver View Post
    Unfortunately, this situation is not restricted to photography and is something related to what I refer to as the post-secondary education industry; i.e. the community colleges and universities churning out people with diplomas and degrees in subjects where there is little hope of getting reasonable full-time employment.

    If you look at the number of people graduating with degrees (bachelors, masters and doctorates) or diplomas in fields like architecture, philosophy, teaching, archaeology, law etc. The list goes on and on. The province where I live announced this week that they will be cutting the number of admissions to Teacher’s College in half over the next couple of years and doubling the length of the course from one year to two years because the supply for new teaching positions far outstrips the number of positions available.

    On the other hand, in spite of the after effects of the economic downturn, there is still a demand for certain professions; accountants, engineers, medical specialists, certain skilled trades, etc.
    Manfred:

    The post secondary education industry.

    This is my personal pet peeve. A recent issue of Maclean's magazine featured this, citing the number of highly qualified university/college grads that can't find work.

    Photography will be no different. Many of those earning a living in photography do so by running guided tours to exotic places for people with a bit of money.

    Glenn

  10. #10
    Administrator Manfred M's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    12,988
    Real Name
    Manfred Mueller

    Re: The truth

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn NK View Post
    Manfred:

    The post secondary education industry.

    This is my personal pet peeve. A recent issue of Maclean's magazine featured this, citing the number of highly qualified university/college grads that can't find work.

    Photography will be no different. Many of those earning a living in photography do so by running guided tours to exotic places for people with a bit of money.

    Glenn

    My pet peeve is that someone who wants to teach grade 2 will need 6 years of post-secondary education; this is getting close to the number of years one needs to qualify as a doctor.. There is something inherently wrong with this picture. Personal trainers that need degrees in kinesiology, etc. This education inflation is just plain wrong.

    I remember the time that shop teachers needed working experience and a 1-year certificate in teaching. People wanting to teach grade school needed a 3-year degree plus a year of teacher's college (and even that was overkill). The Japanese have a great word for this = "muda", which translates as "waste".

  11. #11
    William W's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Sraylya
    Posts
    3,964
    Real Name
    William (call me Bill)

    Re: The truth

    ah - I respond "yes", to many of the above comments,

    But, I am not sure if there is ANY country/state legislation in the world which REQUIRES an education qualification for a person to charge money for making photographs - i.e. to become a "Professional Photographer" . . .

    WW

  12. #12

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Dunedin New Zealand
    Posts
    2,697
    Real Name
    J stands for John

    Re: The truth

    I am very glad that Bill's suggestion for educational qualification to be a professional photographer is not yet in place since without anything other than City&Guilds Intermediate I would have been condemmed to being a bank clerk as my guardian wanted for me .. by that stage I had done two years National Service and proved my inaptitude for that kind of work

    A symptom of the craze for qualifications has been taking effect for years is that the talk these days is, by politicians and others, get a qualification rather than changing the system so that there are more jobs. I wonder how many of today's aspiring photographers are what others call dole bludgers?

    I think most of us here are in retirement and I know for a certainty that I really had an easy life and my sympathy and concern goes to those starting out today and grasping at straws to provide an income.

    But thanks all, you provide interesting reading.
    Last edited by jcuknz; 8th June 2013 at 03:04 AM.

  13. #13
    William W's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Sraylya
    Posts
    3,964
    Real Name
    William (call me Bill)

    Re: The truth

    It wasn't a suggestion.

    It was a statement.

    WW

  14. #14
    Administrator Manfred M's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    12,988
    Real Name
    Manfred Mueller

    Re: The truth

    Quote Originally Posted by William W View Post
    ah - I respond "yes", to many of the above comments,

    But, I am not sure if there is ANY country/state legislation in the world which REQUIRES an education qualification for a person to charge money for making photographs - i.e. to become a "Professional Photographer" . . .

    WW

    Quite true Bill; but people in various jurisdictions have been pushing in that direction at various time. They just have not been successful so far.

  15. #15
    tomdinning's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Darwin Australia
    Posts
    188
    Real Name
    tom dinning

    Re: The truth

    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver View Post
    My pet peeve is that someone who wants to teach grade 2 will need 6 years of post-secondary education; this is getting close to the number of years one needs to qualify as a doctor.. There is something inherently wrong with this picture. Personal trainers that need degrees in kinesiology, etc. This education inflation is just plain wrong.

    I remember the time that shop teachers needed working experience and a 1-year certificate in teaching. People wanting to teach grade school needed a 3-year degree plus a year of teacher's college (and even that was overkill). The Japanese have a great word for this = "muda", which translates as "waste".
    When did it change from 4 to 6, Manfred?

    I've been through it all. Started with 2 years training and out to the rock face. Scary ****. 19 I was. Not much older than the people I taught. Then came 3 year quals. Upgrade 1. Then came 4 year quals. Upgrade 2. Then came specialization. Upgrade 3.
    Almost felt like a CS money grab from Adobe. My last upgrade - another bloody degree - was at 60 years old. I thought I was over it by then.
    Being a teacher all my working life - with a few breaks to find another way of earning a living, including a working photographer - what amazed me was the number of people who choose to teach photography - or anything else for that matter - and have no idea how to teach. Mind you, there are some teachers with quals out there who might do better at digging ditches and there are some fine people teaching photography who do a bloody good job of it.
    The problem often falls back on the student. What fallback do they have? What recourse is available if they are taught the 'wrong' thing? Curricula in schools, colleges and universities are scrutinized and strictly adhered to. These institutions are required for registration to adhere to the regulations of teacher quals and curriculum. We are usually reassured by this although I know a few people who would grumble at the word teacher. Some days I would have enjoyed a better standard of student but thems the breaks.
    I read here and in other places, people asking for advise on course choices. One that is strongly worth considering for the reasons stated above is the colleges, schools and universities. I live in a relatively small city. We have a few photographers that run their own 'school'. Ha! Picnic in the park is more like it. Our college and university run very good and well structured short courses and integrated cert, diploma and degree courses which cover most aspects of photography. The teachers are all qualified in the subject they teach as prescribed by the teacher registration board. Most of them are ugly buggers like me but at least they are presumed to know what they are talking about and know how to teach.

    I wouldn't complain too much about the extent of qualifications needed these days. If you're a plumber or IT tech or doctor you need to continually fill in the knowledge gaps and upgrade if you want to do anything new.

    Education is highly valued. Good teachers should be highly valued. Good teachers value their own education as well as those they teach.

  16. #16

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Johannesburg South Africa
    Posts
    2,550
    Real Name
    Andre Burger

    Re: The truth

    Quote Originally Posted by jcuknz View Post
    I wonder how many tutors tell their students to get a 'day job' to pay for their passion?
    Your “day job” should be your passion. A hobby should be financed by your passion. How many of us can say that?

    The truth is: When shooting at a target from 1000M out, aim high! You might just hit the bulls eye. Aim low and you will never hit the target.

    Has anyone of you ever heard of a man by the name of Sir Richard Branson?

    Desmond Tutu asked Sir Richard why he is so rich and what could he, Desmond Tutu, tell young people how to become a millionaire. Sir Richard replied by saying “ You should never aim at becoming a millionaire. Live out your passion in life and if there is money to be made you will become a millionaire. Do not strive to make money, strive to live out your passion. Tell young people to follow their passion in life”

    If money is your only motivation you will never succeed in what you are doing. Telling young people to peruse a career where there is money to be made is guiding them into a life of misery. No matter how little money you have in life, if you can appreciate what you got you are rich.

    To the young: If you have talent and a passion for Photography pursue your dream and you will succeed. Those whom follow their dream with passion get better and better at what they do all the time, they are the ones hitting the target. Never let money be the only motivation to do what you are doing in life.

    To parents and teachers: Identify the talent your child or student enjoys most and encourage him/her to follow their dream with passion. NEVER tell a child it is impossible!

  17. #17
    tomdinning's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Darwin Australia
    Posts
    188
    Real Name
    tom dinning

    Re: The truth

    Quote Originally Posted by AB26 View Post
    Your “day job” should be your passion. A hobby should be financed by your passion. How many of us can say that?

    The truth is: When shooting at a target from 1000M out, aim high! You might just hit the bulls eye. Aim low and you will never hit the target.

    Has anyone of you ever heard of a man by the name of Sir Richard Branson?

    Desmond Tutu asked Sir Richard why he is so rich and what could he, Desmond Tutu, tell young people how to become a millionaire. Sir Richard replied by saying “ You should never aim at becoming a millionaire. Live out your passion in life and if there is money to be made you will become a millionaire. Do not strive to make money, strive to live out your passion. Tell young people to follow their passion in life”

    If money is your only motivation you will never succeed in what you are doing. Telling young people to peruse a career where there is money to be made is guiding them into a life of misery. No matter how little money you have in life, if you can appreciate what you got you are rich.

    To the young: If you have talent and a passion for Photography pursue your dream and you will succeed. Those whom follow their dream with passion get better and better at what they do all the time, they are the ones hitting the target. Never let money be the only motivation to do what you are doing in life.

    To parents and teachers: Identify the talent your child or student enjoys most and encourage him/her to follow their dream with passion. NEVER tell a child it is impossible!
    Lovely sentiments, Andre.
    Someone still needs to pay the bills, keep healthy, find shelter and eat. It might be just as useful to suggest we be passionate about living. Then everything is good for us.
    Not everyone has the the character or environment to be a Bramston or Tutu. Most of us are just plodding along in our own clumsy way, joining whatever dots we come across and making the best of it. Some don't know how to do even that. Telling such people they must follow their passion might be taken as just staying alive or feeding their family, or figuring out what life is about and in some cases, not succeeding.

    It may all sound a bit pessimistic and skeptical and you may be right. There is a balance with each individual that we all face between what we want and what we need. If they come together then well and good. If they don't we learn to live with one or the other or a bit of each.

  18. #18
    Jeff S's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Honolulu, HI
    Posts
    1,193
    Real Name
    Jeff

    Re: The truth

    I've been around a long time...over 30 years during which I had two successive white collar professional careers which I enjoyed well enough. After some health issues a couple of years ago I accepted a position with a local charity that had been pursuing me for a few years and now enjoy my third career in more than 30 years.

    My passion has always been photography, which I pursued as a hobby. Recently, I decided to "go pro" on the side, not quitting my day job with the charity. I decided to call myself (somewhat incredible, I'll readily admit) a fine art photographer (don't ask me what that means) because I simply wanted to challenge myself and figured if I aim high I might get there. I don't want to do weddings or portraits or pet shots or any number of other photographic projects. I just want to make images that appeal to me and sell them if anyone is willing to pay for them.

    Today, I officially started my side-job. Today, I also sold my first two photographs for a moderate profit (a 20" x 30" seascape which sold for $250 US, and a 36" x 18" landscape which sold for $700 US). Maybe I should have asked for more, maybe not. I'm just getting my feet wet and picked these numbers based upon what others are doing in my community and based upon my costs. The images were well received by the purchasers and others who saw them. It doesn't matter that my skill level is no better than most of the people who post here, and not as good as many who do so. It also doesn't matter that we can debate what it means to create "fine art." All that matters to me is that I took action.

    I write this, simply to point out one thing. Half the battle is just doing something. I admit that I do have prior business experience, having been self-employed in my first two careers, until taking the position with the charity. Other than that, I am simply willing to pursue my passion as a side business, while not being so foolish as to quit the day job that pays the bills. Maybe I'll succeed at this venture; maybe I won't. Maybe the best I will ever be able to do is sell a few photographs every once in a while. I'll only find out by actually doing something without being totally foolish about the practicalities of life. ...And I am finally pursuing my passion in a small business on my own terms. Isn't that enough? It is for me.

  19. #19

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Johannesburg South Africa
    Posts
    2,550
    Real Name
    Andre Burger

    Re: The truth

    Tom, life is about choices we make. From a very tender age we have to make choices. Parents are there to bring up a child and guide a child in making choices. Teachers are there to teach and identify specific talents.

    You made choices and I made choices. I chose to get married and have a family above pursuing my dream. If I chose my dream above getting married I might have been very successful in whatever my dream was, to the extent that I would have been able to get married and have a family as well. Making choices the wrong way round might lead to never being able to fulfil all of your dreams.

    At our age we should have enough wisdom to lead the younger generation not to make the same mistakes we made. My father was of the opinion he could force me into doing what he wanted me to do. A teenage boy is the cleverest thing on earth and no one knows better than a teenager. Have you been a teenager? Forcing your own will upon another usually leads to conflict. Conflict has never solved any problem. Should I make the same mistakes or should I have learned from my own experiences?

    My daughter also made choices. She has a father not forcing his will upon her, allowing her to make her own choices and I respect her choices. I have always only been there to guide her and tell her what the advantages and disadvantages would be of the choices she makes. She chose to move a 1000 miles away from Mom and Dad at the age of 23. Not that Dad was very impressed with her choice but it had been a lifelong dream of her to live at the sea and I was not going be the one to ruin it for her. I drove her down, in her own car, to my own detriment. She knew she still had a home to come back to if her dream failed.

    She is 30 now, happily married to a wonderful man, taking great care of her. She still has a home, with Mom and Dad, if ever she would need one. She is still my child after all but she is another man’s wife now. To my delight she can live the life she has been dreaming of since she was very young.

    Lovely sentiments Tom? No, the reality of making choices in life. She was (and still is) young and I had to grant her the opportunity to follow her dream, making more of her life than her father could. All young people should be granted the same opportunity to live a dream. If we, the older generation, are granted the power, by the grace of GOD, to make it possible for them, should we deny them any chance because we never had the chance?

    If a young man had to ask me today, I would advise him to follow his dream with passion and then get married. His choice! As long as you are not married you have very little responsibility and you can do what you dream of doing.

  20. #20

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Johannesburg South Africa
    Posts
    2,550
    Real Name
    Andre Burger

    Re: The truth

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff S View Post
    It doesn't matter that my skill level is no better than most of the people who post here, and not as good as many who do so.
    Excuse me, look who's talking.

    Great for you Jeff. Hope your fourth career will be a long and very successful one. May you sell a Zillion images.
    If you want to do it you can.

    Please excuse me, but I am going to shoot "old ladies" playing hockey now.

    Cheers.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •