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Thread: The printing questions start here

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    Moderator Donald's Avatar
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    The printing questions start here

    Well, the Epson R3000 has arrived and its been successfully installed. Phew!!!

    And in the run up to that, all my pre-purchase questions were so well answered here, in the spirit of helpfulness that is the hallmark of CiC.

    But now that it is installed, the next questions start surfacing and I'd be grateful for any advice you can provide.

    I'll try and keep the questions clear and concise, but when you're at the beginning of a learning curve you sometimes take longer to explain things. So please bear with me. I'm using Elements 11 and I appreciate the printer dialogues may vary between this and other Adobe products and versions.

    But the question (which I'm sure will be the first of many) is..............

    After having selected printer and paper size and having chosen 'More Options' an arrived at 'Colour Management' and clicked on Printer Preferences (hope you're with me), we arrive at the Properties Dialogue:-

    The printing questions start here

    Right, it's here that I have my problem.

    Media Type. Now it seems fine if I was using Epson paper, but I've got a test pack selection of Permajet papers that I want to try out to see which I like. But it's only Epson type of papers that are listed in that drop down; e.g. 'Epson Matte'. But I don't get the option to put in any Permajest papers, or the option for any other 3rd party papers.

    I have all the profiles downloaded and am able to select them quite easily in the 'Colour Management' dialogue. But, and this is the question, should I be seeing all paper options in that 'Media Type' drop down? If so, where do I get the information from to import into this?

    Please help a poor lost soul who is wandering in the mist ... directionless!
    Last edited by Donald; 21st April 2013 at 05:21 PM.

  2. #2

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    Re: The printing questions start here

    As often occurs with printer questions, Donald, there are more questions to ask. Do you have the option to select 'Let Photoshop handle colours' or something similar? If so, that allows you to select more paper options and printing profiles.

    I still double check that the basic printer settings are suitable.

    That is what I do. But with CS5 and Epson R1900 printer.

    When printing with other software, eg text software, I just ignore the word Epson and choose from 'glossy, semi glossy, matte, etc' which normally works OK as long as the paper isn't excessively different; in which case some manual printer adjustment may be needed.

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    Re: The printing questions start here

    Quote Originally Posted by Donald View Post
    Well, the Epson R3000 has arrived and its been successfully installed. Phew!!!



    After having selected printer and paper size and having chosen 'More Options' an arrived at 'Colour Management' and clicked on Printer Preferences (hope you're with me), we arrive at the Properties Dialogue:-

    Right, it's here that I have my problem.

    Media Type. Now it seems fine if I was using Epson paper, but I've got a test pack selection of Permajet papers that I want to try out to see which I like. But it's only Epson type of papers that are listed in that drop down; e.g. 'Epson Matte'. But I don't get the option to put in any Permajest papers, or the option for any other 3rd party papers.

    I have all the profiles downloaded and am able to select them quite easily in the 'Colour Management' dialogue. But, and this is the question, should I be seeing all paper options in that 'Media Type' drop down? If so, where do I get the information from to import into this?
    Hello Donald

    Media type is a significant variable. The media type you specify determines the ink density that is deposited and is determined by the paper's absorbency: clearly different for matte papers than glossy. A wrong choice can result in problems like inks not drying, excessive metamerism etc

    The driver for an Epson printer, being written by Epson, understandably specifies only Epson papers. (Likewise Canon for Canon printers, and HP etc)

    Third party paper suppliers such as Ilford specify, on their profile download site, which OEM media type should be selected as the best match for their paper, along with the profile.

    I had a very quick look at the Permajet site (we don't see their papers in this part of the world) and didn't immediately see the equivalent information. I feel it should be there: they must have assumed/worked out which media type to select when they made a paper profile for the R3000. At the very least I'd expect them to advise you in response to an email.

    If they were not forthcoming, all is not lost. As a first approximation, if the Permajet paper is a gloss or semi gloss you could choose the Epson paper which sounds as if it is most like it. (That might mean a trip to Epson's site too.)

    However, the very best way is to find out for yourself by experimentation. Keith Cooper outlines the process here (toward the bottom of the article)

    I think Robbie Burns had a saying for the journey of trialling you're about to embark on. "if at first you don't succeed ...." Enjoy!

    Tim
    Last edited by Macmahon; 21st April 2013 at 10:25 PM. Reason: new info.

  4. #4

    Re: The printing questions start here

    Hi Donald
    PermaJet make it really easy for their users as they supply a PDF which decribes how to install and use their profiles. It is on their wbsite and supplied with their CIS systems on a CD along with all the profiles for each printer.
    If you look at their website and look at ICC Profiling Services ( http://www.permajet.com/Products/Per...ofile-Services ), in all three type of profile explanation, highlighted in blue, are links to a file called 'How to Install and use ICC Profiles'. You will see that they explain how they name each profile with the equivalent media type that you need to choose in the driver so you can never forget it!! EPG stands for Epson Premium Glossy and EVFAP stands for epson Velvet Fine Art Paper and so on, really simple idea.
    Hope thsi helps.

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    Moderator Donald's Avatar
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    Re: The printing questions start here

    Quote Originally Posted by PruPrice View Post
    PermaJet make it really easy for their users as they supply a PDF which decribes how to install and use their profiles. I
    Y'know, I've read that document a hundred times and, sometimes, it's not until someone points out the obvious that you see it!!

    PruPrice (don't know if that's a derivation of your real name) - you are wonderful.

    I saw your only previous post (2009) and see you writing that you work for a company that supplies printers and paper. Imaging Warehouse? If so, could you tell someone to ignore the query I sent last night from the website and tell them that a wonderful person gave me the answer in simple, easy-to-understand language.

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    Moderator Donald's Avatar
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    Re: The printing questions start here

    Next question - flowing from PruPrice's wonderful answer above.

    If I'm using the Epson R3000 in advanced B & W mode I don't, of course, specify a profile as the printer is managing colour and the profile drop-down box greys out. So, does that mean that what is entered into the 'Media Type' box in the Properties dialogue is irrelevant, or should I still be matching the Permajet paper I'm using to the media type options in that drop-down menu?

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    Re: The printing questions start here

    Oh, the joys of printing.



    Sorry donald, i can't really answer your questions. I only use canon papers, and match everything on the printer page, and photoshop page. If your telling the printer to let photoshop handle colors, then it shouldn't matter. Make shure you set up the other stuff though..........print quality...........orientation..........which tray its fed from........borderless printing.......etc.

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    Moderator Donald's Avatar
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    Re: The printing questions start here

    Quote Originally Posted by Donald View Post
    ... or should I still be matching the Permajet paper I'm using to the media type options in that drop-down menu?
    To answer my own question - Of course you should, you idiot!

    Just wanting to check with others that this is the right answer?

    The printer still needs to know what the media type is, even though I'm not applying a profile, so that it uses the right ink and applies it in the right way. Am I think the right way here?

    This is called 'thinking aloud', or should that be, 'thinking in writing'.

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    Re: The printing questions start here

    Quote Originally Posted by Donald View Post
    The printer still needs to know what the media type is, even though I'm not applying a profile, so that it uses the right ink and applies it in the right way. Am I think the right way here?
    You're on to it!
    Cheers
    Tim

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    Moderator Donald's Avatar
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    Re: The printing questions start here

    Quote Originally Posted by Macmahon View Post
    You're on to it!
    Cheers
    Tim
    Thanks Tim

    I think I'm starting to think and behave like someone who knows what they need to do to print successfully. I wonder what I've done wrong!!

    A few tests (in B & W and colour) seem to have worked okay. Am working my way through the various papers in the test packs I got in order to form an opinion as to what I think I'm going to like. Am printing the image on each of the papers I have.

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    Re: The printing questions start here

    Hi Donald,

    I'd strongly suggest a quick email to PermaJet, I've always had very prompt and useful responses. Don't use an Epson printer myself but their recommendation to me (for an HP B9180GP) was to select 'Other photo papers' in the HP driver when using gloss/pearl and 'Other fine art papers' for their matt papers, though I don't know if those options exist in the Epson driver. I also use their profiles including the custom profile service.

    Out of interest I also love their new Titanium Lustre for B/W prints, it has a metalic sheen and a very fine surface that gives realy crisp almost jump of the paper results.

    Cheers,
    Ady

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    Re: The printing questions start here

    Hi Donald,

    Profiling "tweaks" the output so that the colours we request become the colours we get - we all know that - but - as a profile is only a modification to the original data; best practice suggests that the less it has to try and change the data the better (because the more it has to change, the less accurate the algorithms that calculate the change are) - and that's where media selection comes in ...

    ... If you tell the printer that you're using a heavy canvas and then attempt to profile a thin & light glossy paper the software will have to try and work out the correct colours from a sea of ink -- with poor results.

    So in essence, an exact match in media types isn't essential (I'm sure an Epson premium luster 180gsm paper will be close to a Canon premium luster 180gsm paper) (in terms of media type - NOT profile) - it just gives the profiling software a reasonably good set of data to work from.

    Incidentally, that's why we say that a profile is only valid for a given printer / paper / ink / MEDIA SETTING combination. When printing you MUST select the same media type for a print that you did when you printed the test targets that you created profiles from.

    Fun isn't it

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    Moderator Donald's Avatar
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    Re: The printing questions start here

    Quote Originally Posted by Colin Southern View Post
    Fun isn't it
    The good bit, at least, is that I'm now understanding what you're writing. So that means I'm definitely learning something!

    I am actually enjoying it. I love learning and this is is a whole new ball game. I think you, Colin, and others have written about the joy of seeing your own work being created onto paper/canvas in a printer. It's true. It's a real kick.

    Ady - I certainly intend to use Permajet's custom profiling service, once I've decided what the selection of papers are that I think I'll find myself using. I'm working my way through the Digital Photo test pack that came with the printer and I also bought the Baryta test pack (but haven't tried any of them yet). I think I'm looking for one for colour and one for B & W from pack and then stick with them. I like the Ultra Pearl 295 for colour from the Digital Photo pack. The Matt Plus 240 does a good job for the B & Ws.

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    Re: The printing questions start here

    Quote Originally Posted by Donald View Post
    I certainly intend to use Permajet's custom profiling service
    Do them yourself you coward

    (Seriously, it'll cost you less in the long run - and - you may need to tweak them anyway, which you can't do if someone else creates them for you).

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    Re: The printing questions start here

    Hi Donald,

    Dragging up this old thread.

    I'm just working my way through the Permajet test pack. Although we have very different printers, I wonder which papers you did settle on? I assume you stuck to your plan to use their profiling service - did that go OK, or did you succumb to Colin's siren voice?

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    Moderator Donald's Avatar
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    Re: The printing questions start here

    David

    With work, events, etc, I haven't progressed as far as I'd hoped at this stage.

    I don't intend getting the bespoke profiles done until I switch over from the Epson inks that are in just now to the Permajet Eco-Flo bulk system that I got. I'm holding back one sheet of each of my preferred papers so that I can run the patch file on each of them and send it off for the free profile. I will be sending these off to Permajet to get a profile

    And as for the preferred papers ........

    I got the test pack of Digital Photo Papers with the printer. I also bought the FBBaryta test pack.

    From the former, I'm looking at Matt Plus 240 for B & Ws and Ultra Pearl 295 for colour. But it is a close call between the Ultra Pearl and the Oyster 271 (might still change my mind). From the Baryta papers, I'm definitely with FB Delta Matt 285 for B & Ws and not yet sure about colour prints. I haven't yet tried the other papers that pack.

    Going back to the Digital Photo Papers, I am really pleased with the quality of the Matt Proofing 160 for making pages of thumbnail proofs.

    I haven't got any of the Fine Art papers yet and, to be honest, not sure that I need them.

    One final point - I have seen (including a post on here) reviews stating that their new Titanium Lustre 280, from the Digital Photo Papers range, is excellent. But it is not, of course, included in the test pack.

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    Re: The printing questions start here

    Thanks Donald for the comprehensive reply. From my test prints I think I am preferring the Oyster to the Pearl, but I will try again when I get the profiles. I don't do a lot of b&w, but I tried out the Matte 240 which you mentioned in your earlier post, and I agree the effect is excellent.

    I am going to get custom profiles made, because Canon now just offer a single generic ink jet profile for my printer, and I couldn't keep the old profiles because I needed new drivers for my new 64 bit computer.

    Permajet now include just two sheets of the Titanium paper in the test pack, but I haven't risked one yet

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    Moderator Donald's Avatar
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    Re: The printing questions start here

    Quote Originally Posted by davidedric View Post
    Permajet now include just two sheets of the Titanium paper in the test pack, but I haven't risked one yet
    Damn! Looks like I got the timing wrong.

    Be very interested to hear what your thoughts are once you do try it.

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    Re: The printing questions start here

    Hi Donald,

    Just remembered this thread. I still haven't used the two sheets of metallic paper, but I did have profiles made. It was interesting.

    Gloss - fine

    Oyster - stunning. Definitely my go to paper.

    Ultra Pearl - terrible. Colours just disappeared - no idea why.

    All were colour images.

    Have fed all this back to Permajet.

    What did you end up deciding?

    Dave

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    Moderator Donald's Avatar
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    Re: The printing questions start here

    Dave

    I hate to admit it, but over the summer, I haven't got near the camera, never mind the printer. All very frustrating and I just don't know where the summer has gone.

    I just looked up at the dates on this thread and realise I was writing in May. That's frightening!

    Interesting what you write about the profiles.

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