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Thread: First Interchangeable Lens Camera

  1. #1

    First Interchangeable Lens Camera

    Hi ! I want to buy an Interchangeable Lens Camera but I don't have enough money to invest in different pairs of lenses. This may sound really stupid...
    But, could I photograph things from macros or closeups to people and landspaces with a 20-50mm lens?

  2. #2
    inkista's Avatar
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    Re: First Interchangeable Lens Camera

    I answered this in your other thread.

    The Samsung NX 20-50 lens is a 30.8-77mm equiv. And has a minimum focus distance of .9' [0.28m] (presumably at the 20mm end of the lens). P&S cameras can do macros without adding a special macro lens because the sensors are small, their lenses are proportionately as small, and very short focal lengths (say <6mm) gives you a very very large depth of field and a very small minimum focus distance. But the shortest the 20-50 goes is 20mm. So it can't focus on anything closer than a foot way.

    Yes, you can photograph people and landscapes with any lens. This one may just not be particularly well-suited for capturing very wide vistas [unless you panostitch], and the macro capability is limited. You're used to the lens on your Sony P&S, which is a 26-105 equiv. So the NX's kit lens alone does less on both ends. Add a macro lens, a telephoto zoom, and an ultrawide, and the NX will do far more.

    I tend to make the analogy that a P&S camera is like a swiss army knife while a dSLR is like a big red toolbox. And you still have to buy the tools to fill the toolbox. One is small, cheap, self-contained, but some tools are missing and others are compromises. The other is big, heavy, and expensive, but you can have the right tool for the task. Mirrorless, I'm starting to think of as a toolbelt.
    Last edited by inkista; 2nd March 2013 at 05:23 PM.

  3. #3

    Re: First Interchangeable Lens Camera

    Sorry, only saw your other reply now. Good analogy . Are there any good/cheap lenses you recommend?

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    Re: First Interchangeable Lens Camera

    I also mentioned in your other thread that I had extension tubes and bellows as a reason for getting my first digital ILC but in practice they rarely get used becuase normally I find that my standard 2 dioptre close-up lens added to the zoom lens with its x12 432mm AoV [bridge camera] or now my x10 280 AoV lens gives me the close-up ability I need .... as the other morning when I found this fellow in the kitchen sink Full frame with the M4/3 14-140 zoom and 2 dioptre CU lens ... to get his feelers in shot I had to zoom back a bit from 280 AoV to 116mm AoV as EXIF tells me. On board flash as it was still dark.
    First Interchangeable Lens Camera
    I know it is not a delicious 'bug's eye" shot which is beyond me working this way but big enough
    So maybe your need is not an ILC but a bridge camera and moderate CU lens My current rig was not cheap so I hesitate to suggest it to people. [GH2 with Lumix 14-140]
    Last edited by jcuknz; 2nd March 2013 at 07:35 PM.

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    inkista's Avatar
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    Re: First Interchangeable Lens Camera

    I'm not familiar with the NX system, and if you choose an NX, then you're limited to their lenses. I'd suggest hitting a board for NX shooters. Maybe these guys?

    Generally, though, learn the basics of lenses: what focal length and maximum aperture really mean in practical shooting terms, and then consider what it is you most want to do with your camera gear that you can't with what you have. That will guide you to whatever lens you're most likely to want. Everybody's different, so there's no easy answer to the "what lens should I buy?" question.

    As I said, I was a complete eccentric. One of the first lenses I bought was a fisheye. This is a lens few people ever feel the need to rent, let alone buy. But for me, it's been a staple that goes with me in my bag all the time. And when I flipped over to mft, I immediately bought a fisheye on that system as well. Which lens to go for really depends on you, what/how you shoot.
    Last edited by inkista; 8th March 2013 at 07:32 PM. Reason: typo

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    Re: First Interchangeable Lens Camera

    Kathy mentions the word "system" which is the word many use to justify the DSLR with the HUGE Canikon range of lenses, and others to justify changing to M4/3 which can use ALL lenses [ almost ]
    Not to ignore the backward capability of Pentax .....
    But the point is can you afford to purchase or even hire all those lenses or likely to be able to in the future ...I guess not.
    Most designers organise a collection of lenses to suit most people rather than the select few top line photographers .. which accounts for the high prices of the more exotic lenses probably. Samsung have 20 lenses listed at dpreview for you to choose from and likely there are adaptors to use other lenses I don't know about.
    As for getting a bugeye shot how about this crop from one of my wider shots.
    First Interchangeable Lens Camera
    Not really delicious I fear.

    EDIT Going back to dpreview I see that is only twelve for the NX body and there appear to be cameras with and without an EVF which would be an essential for me who likes shooting with longer lenses.
    Last edited by jcuknz; 2nd March 2013 at 08:14 PM.

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    Re: First Interchangeable Lens Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by someone35 View Post
    Sorry, only saw your other reply now. Good analogy . Are there any good/cheap lenses you recommend?
    SORRY but it is a bad analogy as if you know what you are doing you find that the bridge camera, and the P&S camera somewhat less so, is just as flexible as the ILC and within the limitations and advantages of its small sensor is very capable and flexible. I have been using bridge cameras since almost I started with digital and early on I found it a great tool as compared to the clunky and EXPENSIVE DSLR with its range of accessories. The major difference is the changing of lenses which apparently puts the DSLR on a higher plane, as far as absolute image quality is concerned, which makes it easier for the less expert to get good results ... but that is not the changing of lenses but the size of the sensor which has been the reason since cameras began and Ansel Adams used a 10x8 INCHES view camera and I shot with MF rather than 35mm on occasions.

    The chief draw back of the larger sensor is its need for a longer lens with its limited depth of field, something I immediately saw and remembered why when I started with MFT ... it gets worse with APS and larger

    The P&S when it first arrived was lauded as a camera for those doing macro with its greater depth of field ... I'm talking about the Nikon 900 camera of the turn of the century ... and the bridge camera with its longer lens helps us shoot mountains or mites without or with a suitable Close-up lens. So if you want to shoot mountains and mites then invest in a set of CU lens from Amazon if you are budget challenged. Just checked and they range $10 <$30 plus P&P ....You have not mentioned what camera you already have but if it has a moderate zoom there is a lot you can do, except you cannot crop the way I did off my m4/3 sensor. My first bridge camera had a x8 zoom, Nikon 5700 [ $1000 new or $50 2/h ... there was a problem with these cameras but the NZ importers kindly fixed mine at no charge and it is still working good as ever ten years later, it is horribly slow compared to current cameras but turns out great results for a 5Mp camera]

    Photography is a huge compromise, swings and roundabouts, and one has to try and decide what is right for you ... it is very hard and in my early days I went through cameras like nobodies business I am ashamed to admit. Chopping and changing and wasting a lot of money I didn't have in those days.

    EDIT. One point .. the hitch with the P&S camera focusing close is that you have to get close to do it and it is only at the wide angle lens setting ... so you do not end up with a very tight framing ... but the bridge camera has its longer zoom and adding a CU lens [ moderate strength for IQ reasons] one achieves tight framing using the long lens without going that close, which is advantagious for various reasons.
    Last edited by jcuknz; 2nd March 2013 at 09:12 PM.

  8. #8

    Re: First Interchangeable Lens Camera

    -Will post something on the NX forum soon...
    -I currently have a Sony W-350 compact.
    -Wait... Can you use close up lens in bridge cameras? Maybe try a little "stupider" language for me... And what are your thoughts on something like the Nikon P510 and Fujifilm SL1000??

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    Re: First Interchangeable Lens Camera

    Sorry I'm hogging this thread but the simple answer to your question, can you do mountains to [big] mites with the the 20-50 lens and the answer is MAYBE .....But you will need the set of CU lenses to achieve the close shots and you will need to go in closer than I do [ with only the 77mm AOV lens ] for the tight framings I am after and probably you would like too. But forget the extension tube option becuase the lens is a fully automatic beastie without manual control over the aperture when it is separated from the camera by a tube.

    After a further check at Amazon, you asked for a cheap lens etc, I found adaptors [ about $30 ] for some Nikon and Minolta lenses to NX though with them you will likely be working manually if you can find them.
    EzPhoto used to have adaptors for Pentax lenses but are out of stock and don't know when or if fresh stock will arrive. [ Ebay lists 32 items ]
    Last edited by jcuknz; 2nd March 2013 at 09:59 PM.

  10. #10

    Re: First Interchangeable Lens Camera

    Sorry but no Amazon or Ebay in my country ...
    But I am not fully certain about the NX...
    Just found out the touch-screen Olympus E-PM1 at the same price as the NX1000...
    This one with 14-42mm lens...
    Your thoughts please?

  11. #11

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    Re: First Interchangeable Lens Camera

    Surely Amazon and Ebay will post to Portugal as trhey do to me in NZ. The thing to watch is import duties but the FZ62 I linked you to was post free in the EU and I assume no duty between member countries of the EU.
    If you can access CiC with your computer I am sure you can access them too? Just as I have both CiC and Ebay on separate pages of my computer at the moment, as well as PSP too Importing from the States/HongKong could be a problem with duty so while EU prices are horrendous if you buy within the EU you save on duty, if not on things like VAT or whatever you have in Portugal.

    Another comment to the E-PM[?] ... if it just has a tilt down screen like I saw in a photo I would consider it a poor relation to the fully articulated LCD screen of my Panasonic and indeed even my ancient Nikon 5700 had it back in 2004 or whenever I bought it, took some years for Panasonic to catch up on this feature. First and only time i used my G3 screen was folded around so I could take a big close shot of my eye, with a CU lens, and I was able to select a point where I wanted my point of focus to be and then watching the LCD positioned my eye at that spot on the screen ... FUN! but not needed the feature since [ 20 months ago now ] Though I do use the screen just tilted for high and low angle shots

    I looked at the W350 and my immediate thought was 'anything you get will be a giant step forward for someone35'
    Just watch and avoid those Nikon and other makers camera which have long zoom but do not have manual overides for aperture and shutter speed ...I have read of some grief from owners of them on blogs ... great for the snap shooter BUT.

    www.dpreview.com is a great place for finding out about cameras. They also have forums for various camera makes which may be of help at times.

  12. #12

    Re: First Interchangeable Lens Camera

    The EPM-1 doesnt have a tiltdown screen.
    But do you think I would be fine with a bridge? They are basically the same price of the ILCs. The biggest difference for me is the zoom, can I get something like 8x at a ILC at something near 400€ for everything?

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    Re: First Interchangeable Lens Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by someone35 View Post
    The EPM-1 doesnt have a tiltdown screen.
    But do you think I would be fine with a bridge? They are basically the same price of the ILCs.
    A bridge camera is nearly always a 1/2.3"-format sensor. I.e., the size of the sensor is pretty much the same as that in the P&S camera you're currently using. Its big handicaps are going to be roughly the same: low light performance and responsiveness (shutter lag) are not as good as with a mirrorless. And the "reach" is achieved as much by the sensor having a 5x crop factor more than having a longer lens. The actual magnification is more like a 100mm lens. They're great for daylight shooting outdoors on subjects that aren't moving that fast. And you'll have macro and superzoom capability. But the only thing you're really gaining on your "wishlist" is RAW capability.

    OTOH. Given that your budget is low, this could be the way to go.

    When you look at the large-sensored fixed-lens compacts, like the Canon GX1, the Fuji X100s, the Sony RX-100 and Sony RX-10, the lenses don't have huge zoom factors, because the sensor size would require the lens to be too big for the camera to remain compact. You can either have a small sensor with a "big" lens, or a big sensor with a small lens in fixed lens cameras. The Sony RX-10, which has a full-frame sensor in it (and costs about $3000) has a lens that doesn't zoom.

    The biggest difference for me is the zoom, can I get something like 8x at a ILC at something near 400 for everything?
    Probably not. You'd have to add a telephoto zoom lens. But the results will probably look a lot nicer with the ILC.

    First Interchangeable Lens Camera
    Panasonic G3 + Panasonic Lumix G Vario 45-200 f/4-5.6 OIS. @200mm (400mm film equiv.)

    The 45-200 cost me $250.

  14. #14

    Re: First Interchangeable Lens Camera

    I will check probably go with a ILC, and for the zoom, well mine only has 4x , we will see that later.
    What about the Lumix G2 and 14-42mm lens, it is the camera below yours right?

  15. #15
    inkista's Avatar
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    Re: First Interchangeable Lens Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by someone35 View Post
    What about the Lumix G2 and 14-42mm lens, it is the camera below yours right?
    Not below. The GF series is the one "below"--the G2 is the one "before" (i.e., same tier, but previous generation). Probably higher speced on user features. The G3 was decidedly "downmarket" from its predecessor. The G3, however, does have a newer sensor than the G2, and the high iso performance on the G3 was noticeably better. I was coming from a dSLR, so I wanted the mft camera I got to have similar high iso performance to the APS-C dSLR I was shooting (Canon 50D). To me, the G2 wasn't quite that good, and the G3 was, but since you're coming from a small sensored P&S, it may still look fine to you. As I said, bring a memory card along with you if you go test these out in person in a store. Bring test images back home and play with them in post-processing to see what will work for you or won't.

    One more note, the higher-up tier, the GH2/3 is actually the one considered to be the best for video. May be out of your price range, even used, though. You could also look at the GX-1 or GF-1 (the later GF-2 and GF-3 were the low-end camera, but the first generation was the high end one; confusing, I know) if you didn't need the flip-out screen or the built-in EVF and preferred the rangefinder-style body vs. the dSLR-like gripped one.

    Most kit lenses are decent walkaround zooms that can cover wide-to-normal relatively well. But they are made to be cheap and not to add much cost to the camera body. They're going to be relatively "slow" (i.e., have a medium to small maximum aperture) and are probably going to perform better in the f/5.6-f/11 range than wide open. My 14-42 is a great lens for shooting landscapes, fair for portraits, poor for low light, and sucks for wildlife. I've supplemented my kit lens with four additional lenses, all of which averaged around $300 apiece. I have the 45-200 as a telephoto zoom for reach (wildlife/landscape), normal and short telephoto fast primes for street and portraiture (Panasonic 20/1.7 pancake and Olympus 45/1.8), and a manual fisheye lens because I shoot 360x180 panos handheld.

    If you're thinking of a fast pancake prime for pocketability, I'd recommend the Panasonic 20/1.7 over the Olympus 17/2.8--it's optically better and faster (has a larger maximum aperture). If you are going to get into interchangeable lens, the maximum aperture on a lens can be as important as focal length.

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    Re: First Interchangeable Lens Camera

    It would be good if UK/Eurpoean members would chip into this discussion with comments about reputable firms in the UK similar to KEH and B&H in the States who deal in secondhand equipment and can be relied upon to describe the goods accurately.

    Coming from a bridge camera my reluctant acceptance of lenses f/4-f/5.8 is compensated for by the fact that I can use faster ISO ... so I am normally at 400 ISO rather than the 100 ISO I stayed at previously. Having fast lenses appears to be important to Kathy but is not really a consideration for me since I am normally at about f/6.3 or smaller ...different people different emphasis. Since the OP is competant in editing it is easy enough to add one or two stops one didn't have in the camera with Levels or Curves. Though for video I am not sure if one can do that sort of PP adjustment [???] so the fast lens could be as important today as it ever was. I know I had a x10 f/2 constant zoom for my movie camera and f/1.4 primes.

  17. #17

    Re: First Interchangeable Lens Camera

    The GF1 is the triple of my budget.
    I can get this Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF2W + 2 lens. Lumix G : Vario MEGA O.I.S. 14 - 42 mm f/3.5 - 5.6 ASPH + Pancake 14 mm f/2.5 ASPH. + bag + Card SDHC 4 Go for 499 €, what are the advantages of having another 14mm lens?

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    Re: First Interchangeable Lens Camera

    I'm not sure .... the prime is a bit faster and likely a bit sharper .. it will be a more compact than the kit lens, but not that much. Probably thought of as a 'slip in the pocket' rig leaving the kit lens at home.

    I am puzled at the 'Go' with the SFHC card. Becuase a class six card is normally suggested for HD video.
    Last edited by jcuknz; 5th March 2013 at 06:54 PM.

  19. #19

    Re: First Interchangeable Lens Camera

    Actually just checked that right now... It is odd indeed....
    What is the difference between the Lumix DMC-GF2C and the DMC-GF2W ? In panasonic's website there is the C, but the one for sale is a W? what does this mean?

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    inkista's Avatar
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    Re: First Interchangeable Lens Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by jcuknz View Post
    .... Having fast lenses appears to be important to Kathy..
    Oh, not appears. Is. My first two decades of shooting with a film SLR were all done with a single 50/1.8 kit lens. I'm used to having wider apertures available to me. I get testy when they're not there. I don't mind pumping up my iso to 3200 or 6400 if I have to, but sometimes you just want a bigger aperture setting to play with.

    Of all my mft lenses, the m.Zuiko 45/1.8 is probably the one that's closest to my personal fave type of lens. I also own a 100/2, 90/2, 85/1.8 and 135/2 for my Canons, so this "short telephoto" portrait length is definitely something I favor.

    First Interchangeable Lens Camera
    DMC-G3. m.Zuiko 45mm f/1.8. iso 160, f/1.8, 1/4000s.

    Quote Originally Posted by jcuknz View Post
    I'm not sure .... the prime is a bit faster and likely a bit sharper .. it will be a more compact than the kit lens, but not that much. ...
    Well, depends on your definition of "that much." To me, it's pretty sizable and the difference between being able to slip the combo into a coat pocket or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by someone35 View Post
    What is the difference between the Lumix DMC-GF2C and the DMC-GF2W ? In panasonic's website there is the C, but the one for sale is a W? what does this mean?
    I have no idea. They used to use a letter suffix for the color of the camera (K for black, S for silver, W for white, A for blue, and R for red), but never heard of C.
    Last edited by inkista; 11th March 2013 at 11:47 PM.

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