Portraits and sports, best combination???

[megrag]

Originally Posted by KentDub

Hi Greg,

Thought I'd put in a few more words

Longer reach is well worth the 1/3 stop - especially with a 1.6x multiplier on it.

As far as lenses - I would highly recommend that you get one zoom to start with, and go at least a couple weeks using that. You will quickly find by looking at the EXIF in bridge what focal length extremes you constantly use (For me - I always need more reach). This will help you make a better decision on what lens to purchase next. (i.e. don't buy a wide angle lens if you always shoot fully zoomed in on your telephoto!)

Very good suggestion. I have thought of this with my P&S, but it is something like 7-29 and just haven't gotten into the comparison math.

The 7D is in a higher class than the 50D. Canon has its models seperated by the number of digits, then the lower the digit - or more simply, the lower the number the higher class the camera is. If you are the kind of person who buys something and uses it until it dies, then I would recommend the 7D. Personally I like to buy things new (newest if I can), and run them into the ground before making a new purchase. The 7D will sport the latest and greatest in Canon's technology - do you need it? Probebly not - but you may grow into it ("It's not more than you need, it's more than you're used to"). As an artist, nothing annoys me more than being limited by my tools - while I do my best to improvise, it's usually a disappointment.

It does, along with a lot of other things it will do subtley better. See above.
As I told William, more than I need right now lets me devote future resources to lenses, etc.

Although I completely agree with this statement in principal - you'll want a higher frame rate. It's not necessarily that you want to capture 7 shots per second - it's the lag between the shots. Let's say you wanted to capture 3 shot burst - on a 3fps camera they would be taken at 1/3rd second intervals. On a 7fps camera, the three shots would be spaced by 1/7th of a second. Thats all three shots in less time that 1.5 shots from the 3fps camera. The 3-shot burst then, will improve your chances of getting the perfect shot (i.e. when the dude is at the peak of his jump) assuming your timing is either dead on, or very close (practice makes perfect).

My A620 has continuous, but I can only get back swing , just before hitting the ball and follow through. Kind of frustrating, I tried quite a few times with a friend trying to hit the ball over a small lake.

While I completely respect that - I thought I'd mention this (I really love my canon printer). It is the first printer I have ever owned that upon looking at the prints, all I see is a photo - not a printed picture. To me, that's worth everything. I havn't had the luxury of having my pictures professionally printed, but with the Canon's 16-bit full AdobeRGB printing, I wouldn't imagine that the lab could do a night and day difference. So - when you do come around to getting a printer, I still recommend the Canon Pro9000 MkII.


I've injected a lot of my own opinions - so feel free to take it with a grain of salt. Hope it helps

The printer will come , but right now it is the least needed.

Your opinions are always welcome. Appreciate the info.

Greg

[megrag]

Originally Posted by William W

I'd think about composition a bit more - especially for people (portraiture) even candids- Compositionally “centre thinking” all the time becomes boring.

I realize this now. Most of the galleries were done a while back. I do a lot of stuff with friends get togethers, and for the most part , people are not so technically critical, which is good for the feelings, but not so good for the craft.

Also some of your night shots you are pulling at 1/20s - wait till you get ISO1600 and ISO3200 - you will be hand holding and shooting at >1/100s - Crikey there will be no stopping you!

Can hardly wait. I got a tripod early on. I did learn that much quickly.

Just on the Bugs and Flowers - the EF100F/2.8Macro is very nice (easy to spend you money) - and it is an OK sports lens too – in good light - I am just throwing that in to the mix because you were to and fro about the 85 or the 100 prime . . . the 100F/2.8Macro is not as fast focussing as then 100F/2. and it is a stop slower

The bug was really neat. I found it curled in a leaf on a spicewood bush in the back yard. The photos were taken in macro mode on a piece of white paper.

Also yes, agreed, Canon fix stuff with firmware upgrade number one and the stuff to fix is usually minor, anyway.

There is already a firmware download( actually two) on their website for the 7D

Thanks for looking, and the nice comments. Greatly appreciated. If I get annoying trying to pick your brain, let me know. I have a lot to learn, so that means lots of questions.
Greg

[William W]

Originally Posted by megrag

Thanks for looking, and the nice comments. Greatly appreciated. If I get annoying trying to pick your brain, let me know. I have a lot to learn, so that means lots of questions. Greg

Looking was fun I saw the green bug – that was a real hoot. I guessed it was a white paper - good thinking!

I went out into my garden and I am now looking for green bugs that have red eyes -
I've got an idea of the green bug with red eyes on the top of a wine glass half full of red wine Hard side lighting and a bit of back light through the wine in the glass . . . see what happens when I look!

***

There are two things I found out about learning:

1. I don't know all of the subjects which I don't know about.
2. The more I do know the more I realize the expanse of what I don't know.

***

Nice comments are easy.

CiC is a really nice place to be for good comments and friendly interaction and there are many brains to pick here.

I am not bad at Formal Critique, either, but many asking for critique just don't understand what a critique actually comprises - but that's a different topic – I am off to find a suitable green bug with red eyes - I already have the bottle of red wine . . . and the glass.

***

[Aside - the EF100F2.8 L IS 1:1 Macro is available here now . . . good price . . . I am throwing out hints my for Christmas stocking . . . so far the response has been: “Honey haven’t you got enough macro lenses?” . . . hmm . . . maybe I should not be so free with precise technical descriptions ???]


WW

[Amberglass]

Hi,

I would suggest that you go for the 7D over the 50D if you want to shoot sports because of the increase in AF cross points and improved tracking abilities. The most common lenses for indoor and outdoor sports (without going into the big lenses) are 16-35 2.8, 24-70 2.8, and 70-200 2.8L IS. Optional 1.4x or 2x for extra reach outdoors depending on situation. Unless you have a lot of available light or the more capable Pro level bodies, extenders indoors are pretty much useless because it will stop down your apertures too far for non-flash indoor use and will sacrifice on some image quality.

Commonly known as the "Holy Trinity", these zooms will also cover all your general purpose shooting needs for the most part. Tripods are not allowed in most school gyms and football fields unless you have permission from the coaches to be there.

Flash is often times not allowed indoors. Outdoors as well if you're on the sidelines, but flash is absolutely useless when you're in the stands; it won't reach. Monopods are allowed but they're only good if you plan on using a 70-200 2.8 or up. Just loosen the tripod collar so that you can easily rotate your camera from horizontal to vertical shots, and back. Just remember to tighten the collar again when you have to move or place your setup down.

Fast primes are just too cumbersome to be switching out all game long. And depending on where you are, will not have the adequate reach. It's easier to switch out two lenses constantly than a whole mess of them. You can miss a lot of shots by switching lenses in and out if your not proficient at it. One of the advantages of shooting with a crop sensor is that you can shoot wide open, and not worry about too much vignetting (non crop style lenses on dx bodies). But shooting completely wide open on most lenses can result in soft images (read and review your lens' manual), chromatic aberrations, vignetting, and difficult metering. It's best to stop the fstop down a step or two for best results, unless you prefer spending a lot of time Ps in post.

The 17-55 2.8 IS is a great general purpose zoom and pairs well with the 70-200 2.8. If you're going to shooting from the stands, recommend you save up for the IS version. Those stands can vibrate and move when excited fans are jumping around, or from you shivering in the cold at night.

Definitely learn how to do a "custom white balance" when working in artificial mercury and sodium vapor lights. It will play havoc on your color tones that Ps will not always be able to balance out by clicking on the magic eyedropper.

Oh and yes, if you figured it out. I'm a freelance sports shooter.

[megrag]

Originally Posted by Amberglass

Hi,

I would suggest that you go for the 7D over the 50D if you want to shoot sports because of the increase in AF cross points and improved tracking abilities. The most common lenses for indoor and outdoor sports (without going into the big lenses) are 16-35 2.8, 24-70 2.8, and 70-200 2.8L IS. Optional 1.4x or 2x for extra reach outdoors depending on situation. Unless you have a lot of available light or the more capable Pro level bodies, extenders indoors are pretty much useless because it will stop down your apertures too far for non-flash indoor use and will sacrifice on some image quality.

Commonly known as the "Holy Trinity", these zooms will also cover all your general purpose shooting needs for the most part. Tripods are not allowed in most school gyms and football fields unless you have permission from the coaches to be there.

Flash is often times not allowed indoors. Outdoors as well if you're on the sidelines, but flash is absolutely useless when you're in the stands; it won't reach. Monopods are allowed but they're only good if you plan on using a 70-200 2.8 or up. Just loosen the tripod collar so that you can easily rotate your camera from horizontal to vertical shots, and back. Just remember to tighten the collar again when you have to move or place your setup down.

Fast primes are just too cumbersome to be switching out all game long. And depending on where you are, will not have the adequate reach. It's easier to switch out two lenses constantly than a whole mess of them. You can miss a lot of shots by switching lenses in and out if your not proficient at it. One of the advantages of shooting with a crop sensor is that you can shoot wide open, and not worry about too much vignetting (non crop style lenses on dx bodies). But shooting completely wide open on most lenses can result in soft images (read and review your lens' manual), chromatic aberrations, vignetting, and difficult metering. It's best to stop the fstop down a step or two for best results, unless you prefer spending a lot of time Ps in post.

The 17-55 2.8 IS is a great general purpose zoom and pairs well with the 70-200 2.8. If you're going to shooting from the stands, recommend you save up for the IS version. Those stands can vibrate and move when excited fans are jumping around, or from you shivering in the cold at night.

Definitely learn how to do a "custom white balance" when working in artificial mercury and sodium vapor lights. It will play havoc on your color tones that Ps will not always be able to balance out by clicking on the magic eyedropper.

Oh and yes, if you figured it out. I'm a freelance sports shooter.

Thank you so much for all the valuable information. I wish I could afford all the lenses you mentioned. Either the 24-70, or the 70-200 will probably be one of my choices but it may come down to a game time decision as to which lenses I end up with.
There are a few things I had not even thought of, but know quite well, now that you mention them, like the stands vibrating. The lighting was one of my biggest questions. I did , through googling, find a product called Expodisk that I was wondering about. Supposed the be a custom white balance disk that works well in difficult situations. The sodium vapor seems to be one of the toughest problems. Seems that they are a very narrow spectrum light source and this is what causes the problems. How do you handle the white balancing?
Love the two photos. Great work. I think I like the gymnast best, although the shadows of the the tennis player and the ball one leg caught my attention pretty quick. Both great shots.
Thanks again.
Greg

[Dave Humphries]

Hi Greg,

I don't think an expodisk is the answer for the situations you could well be shooting under.

I believe it works by the incident light falling on it and since where you are will often not be the same lighting as on the track/pitch/field, it will just give the wrong answer.

As you may guess, I don't have one, but I think I know the theory - it is basically a translucent lens cap which optically 'averages' the CT of light falling on it so the WB system is given just one colour to work on, so all things being equal (i.e. the light falling on you is same as light falling on the subject) it helps.

However, the other common alternative of a Whi-Bal, or grey card also won't be useful if you are restricted from placing it on the aforementioned track/pitch/field for a test shot

You are correct about the problems of sodium vapour lamps and their discontinuous spectrum, but I have seen some reasonable results here by people, so although I have no direct experience, there is some here, here and here.

Oh, and Amberglass manages to get unbelievably good colours from it too Look out some of her other posts with pics if the one above is insufficient proof

Cheers,

[Amberglass]

Originally Posted by megrag

Thank you so much for all the valuable information. I wish I could afford all the lenses you mentioned. Either the 24-70, or the 70-200 will probably be one of my choices but it may come down to a game time decision as to which lenses I end up with.
There are a few things I had not even thought of, but know quite well, now that you mention them, like the stands vibrating. The lighting was one of my biggest questions. I did , through googling, find a product called Expodisk that I was wondering about. Supposed the be a custom white balance disk that works well in difficult situations. The sodium vapor seems to be one of the toughest problems. Seems that they are a very narrow spectrum light source and this is what causes the problems. How do you handle the white balancing?

It all depends on the available lighting that the gym offers because not all gyms are created equal. Yes, I use an expodisc for custom WB. All I do is aim my covered lens up at the light source and take a shot. Sometimes the expodisc is too thick to give a proper custom WB (not enough light), in this case I cover up the lens with plain sheet of white xerox paper. You can double check the color rendition with a test shot image to see if you need to go to paper.

You will need to take several custom WB images over the course of the event or game as the lights power up. As often as every 20 mins but don't worry about fiddling around on the camera, just correct it in post.

Greg, the 17-55 2.8 IS will give you 25-82 mm on your camera. It's a really an L lens in disguise and much lighter than the 24-70 2.8 which is a brick. I wouldn't worry about the ultra wide zooms because unless you're court side (up close and personal less than 3 feet away), it's really not necessary. FYI, objects are closer than they appear with ultra wides so keep one eye open for incoming. The 70-200 2.8L IS will serve you well, but question is; will you be willing to use it enough for everyday use in conjunction with the 17-55 2.8? Don't mind me, just very money conscious and on a "need" basis only.

Great alternatives for telephotos from Canon are the 135 f2L or the 200 2.8L primes. Because these primes do not have IS available, you will need to master a steady hand. This is how I've been shooting for years, and Joe McNally happens to also hold his cameras this way:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDsx3-FWfwk

Just stake your real estate ahead of time before the game to get the focal length to work for you. To show you that it's really a basketball court:

[Colin Southern]

Originally Posted by megrag

I did , through googling, find a product called Expodisk that I was wondering about.

I own two Expodisks - and don't use either. The main issues with them are (1) that you have to be able to point them at the light source (you don't just put them over the camera and take a shot towards the subject) (so not necessarily difficult, but time consuming compared to using a gray card), and (2) in a mixed lighting environment (eg natural lighting and fill flash) you're between a rock and a hard place because it's almost impossible to point the camera towards the light source and have it sample all light sources at the same time, (and at the right ratios if one of them happens to be a camera-mounted flash).

Far easier to simply include a gray card or other spectrally neutral reference in a shot and white balance off that (assuming that your shooting RAW, which you should be).

Hope this helps

[Amberglass]

I've always shoot in RAW and I kept forgetting that not everyone does. RAW will give you the most control in post production processing. It's the equivalent to a film negative. You should also use Sandisk Extreme IV CF cards (I find them more than sufficient) to keep up with clearing the buffers. Extreme III are somewhat sluggish in my experience in RAW, and Extreme II's.

Oh yes, I can shoot in JPEG and allows my camera to shoot at a much faster fps, but there's an art to sports photography that takes time to master. You have to learn to read the plays and anticipate the next course of action, then time it with your camera. You have to. Or you're going to have a lot of wasted shots to go thru and not many keepers. Yes, workflow is a necessary eventual evil and processing so just start off with the the most basics of camera gear because Ps elements can only take you so far. For me, I do 85% of my work in Lr only, and very little in Ps but that comes with experience.

It's all what you're willing to invest the time in doing like any hobby or interest. If you're going to invest the time and the money, learn to do it well for years of enjoyment to come. But be fair warned, sports photography is not as easy as you may think. I've been told many a times how easy I make it look, but then again I've been shooting for over 25+ years. It's not all about capturing amazing plays or performances either. There is an artistic side to sports as well, for examples.


Again like anything else, it's all about personal preferences. time, patience, and how much you are willing to invest in your art and craft. I didn't buy all my lenses overnight btw, it took me a few years (try decades) and upgrading over the years when needed when things died in service.

[megrag]

I have used the white paper to white balance my P&S a couple of times. White balancing is something I have pretty much left up to the camera though. I need to work on that.

Thanks, I was not aware that the lights would change enough to make a difference.

Still my biggest question is lenses. The only thing I really have to go on is that my A620 is a 35-140mm equivalent. I seem to always want more reach. It will either be three fast primes or a combination of one wide zoom and 100mm f2 or a long zoom and a 50mm 1.4. Working on a tight budget is really not much fun.

I have been considering the 50 1.4, 100 f2 and the 200 2.8L. I have heard people say that shooting with primes will make one a better photographer. Zooms are awfully convenient though. Thanks for the link. Great tip on keeping it steady.

Fortunately, these rural gyms and football stadiums are on the smaller side. I just hope the lighting is not a prohibitive factor for the lenses I can afford . The high schools play football on Friday night. When I was in school we played Saturday day games.
Thanks so much for the wealth of info. Hopefully I can soon show you that I have learned from this great advice.

[Amberglass]

Greg, don't worry too much about the reach factor. With a 18 mega pixel sensor, you can crop and enlarge in post to get you closer. (Sports shooters does it all the time). A common mistake that a lot of beginning sports shooters do is shooting too tight. Just remember, you can make a watermelon the size of a lemon by carving it down, but you can't make a lemon into a size of a watermelon.

Yes, taking multiple custom WBs is necessary. Take a closer look at the background of the images I posted. See how the hues changes. Some lights requires 4 hours to fully charge, while others can take up to 8 hours depending.

Primes will definitely tests your abilities, but I highly recommend that you go to the fields and gyms when they're empty to understand your focal lengths better. You don't want to do it during an actual game and possibly drop things. Zooms are more convenient, true. But again, master the basics and your camera first before buying anything else. It took me years to built my glass arsenal, and everyone's needs are different. If your gyms are as small as you say, you may need to go wider than longer, again depending. It's not a bad thing to rent your lenses to try them out.

I'm here if you need me.