Need your thoughts on a change to the Monthly Challenge

[Colin Southern]

Hi Folks,

A couple of members have commented on how it would be nice to have monthy challenge images in a seperate thread from comments and critique on those images. I don't think that that would work too well, but I had another idea.

How would you feel if the official challenge thread was locked (so that only admins and mods could post to it) - anyone who wanted to enter an image would simply pop it into a new thread and send a PM to Dave or myself to say "please also put this image into the competition for me"?

Or as an alternative, have a "Challenge Entry Thread" where images and commentary could both be posted, and Dave or Myself could move the images to a new thread and also include a copy to the (locked) challenge thread?

What do you think?

[Joy]

i'm with the alternative method.

[Colin Southern]

Originally Posted by Joy

i'm with the alternative method.

Thanks Joy - which one? (you might like to vote in the poll above).

[Dave Humphries]

I'm confused (it ain't difficult)

I'm not sure having similarly named threads with similar/identical picture content helps anyone; I think we'll just get into a habit of skipping reading some threads because we've seen it before elsewhere.

What happens now is;
1) As the month progresses, entries and comments go into the one thread, keeps them altogether nice and simple.
2) When it is voting time, Colin temporarily removes the non-picture posts (only) to a new thread to allow voting on the pictures alone, this also shortens the main thread to one or two pages (from three or four) and generally makes life easier for voting
3) ANY member can vote by PM to Colin (over 48 hours)
4) Winners announced in a new thread, congrats posts added by members
5) Colin restores the original comments to the main thread
6) I put the winners names, thumbnail pics and links to both winning and original entries thread into the Hall of Fame post for the month

Let me suggest a fourth alternative; EDIT2: This idea is now withdrawn, see post #9 below
Mods/admin create a locked "pictures only" Voting thread which Colin or I regularly copy the picture posts to. This becomes the voting thread, which saves Colin the hassle of steps 2) and 5) above.
Oh, and I'd put one more link in the Hall of Fame post, to the month's Voting (pictures only) thread.

I think this will satisfy those calling for seeing pictures only and actually makes admin simpler.

EDIT maybe this is only the third option above re-worded

An "Entry" thread where Dave/Colin move images to new threads & copy them to a Challenge Thread

My suggestion has only one new thread (the Voting thread) and only involves copying pictures once
Except calling it a voting thread before you can vote may confuse further .... arghhh

[Donald]

Originally Posted by Dave Humphries

Let me suggest a fourth alternative ...

Sorry, I seem to have started off something that, in the greater scheme of things, is not an issue to lose sleep over. The only point I was making is, that if we want to invite C & Cs on our images, we can post them into a new thread. If we want to post the same image into the Challenge, then we can do so.

I'm not sure that they Challenge Thread is where we want/need extensive comments and re-working of our images by others. However, that is so valuable it must remain a key role of the Forum.

And we shouldn't increase the workload of Mods.

[GillR]

I have no idea how much work is involved (for Dave & Colin) in any of these suggestions, so I think that the question to the general membership should simply be "do you want a comment-free, pics only, challenge thread") and then, if the consensus is yes, Dave & Colin should choose the method that is easiest for them to implement.

Personally, I'm happy with pics & comments all in the same place.

[Dave Humphries]

Donald,

Thanks for the clarification.
I agree 100% with you.

I tend to not comment on other's pics in the competition threads, if (being brutally honest) for no other reason than it reduces my own chances of a placing!

However, if that same pic appears for critique in it's own thread, I wouldn't hold back in any way on making helpful suggestions. If the poster then takes on board those suggestions and replaces the image posted in the challenge with a better PP'd version, then I have no problem with that at all.

Indeed, I have 'swapped out' my own challenge pictures with better PP'd ones; sometimes just as a result of spotting a problem after posting and other(s) because people have been kind enough to suggest something - obviously I am grateful for any help.

Now we could have a rule that says 'no comments in the challenge threads', but we feel it is a much more friendly and helpful place with as few rules as possible - as I know many also believe.

Don't worry you've "started something" Donald, such discussion is healthy.
Thanks to you and Gill for your consideration of mod/admin workload.

Cheers,

[Colin Southern]

Thinking about it more today, the biggest complication is that people have no way of knowing in advance if others will be commenting on their images - only solutionas that I can think of (if we don't want them cluttering up the challenge thread) is to

(a) not post them there in the first place (so they appear in a regular thread where comments can be made) (and subsequently copied to the challenge thread), or

(b) copy the image but move the commentary to a new thread if the image does attract some commentary - which is probably confusing for people who would wonder where their post (originally made in the challenge thread) had gone (and have to find it again).

No easy answers I'm afraid

[Dave Humphries]

I think it should be the poster's responsibility to enter (and optionally update) their own challenge entries.

If we start relying on mods/admin spotting (in normal critique posts or even PMs) a desire for an image to also be entered in a challenge, the time will inevitably come when we miss one or enter the wrong version . It's just asking for trouble in my view.

Even my idea of building a side thread with pics only is dangerous when the imgae is updated in the entry thread and we don't spot it.

I think we should carry on exactly as now.

That is the easy answer and the safest
Especially as we now better understand some of the issues (as discussed above)

Cheers,

[JK6065]

A nice and clean monthly challenge topic would be nice, but in my eyes there's no need to let the admins run for everyone to add/remove/replace pictures in whatever threat.
I suggest a normal monthly challenge threat with some kind of prohibit for posts without pictures (exept for the first one ). Maybe the admins can remove the post without pictures. If you want comments on your photo, than post them in a new thread in the c&c area.

[Joy]

Originally Posted by Colin Southern

Thanks Joy - which one? (you might like to vote in the poll above).

sorry Colin. i meant to say - "Or as an alternative, have a "Challenge Entry Thread" where images and commentary could both be posted, and Dave or Myself could move the images to a new thread and also include a copy to the (locked) challenge thread?"

now "An "Entry" thread where Dave/Colin move images to new threads & copy them to a Challenge Thread"

[Dave Humphries]

Is there any particular reason for this desire for a clean challenge thread? Maybe I am overlooking something
The comments are not there when we vote, and I don't really see the need to prohibit friendly advice, it goes against the whole site's ethos.

So clearly we wouldn't want to just delete advice offered, even if the original poster didn't see the need to ask for critique, so I guess we'd have to create a new thread for the picture and comment that has been posted. Now while that's not difficult, the original picture poster wouldn't know it was there and the person that offered the advice would wonder where it had gone.

Cheers,

[Colin Southern]

Originally Posted by Dave Humphries

Is there any particular reason for this desire for a clean challenge thread?

Hi Dave,

I only brought it up because it's been mentioned a few times (by Antonio and others). I'm inclined to leave it the way it is too - perhaps if any particular image generates a lot of comments then the OP of it can just PM one of us and we can move it to a new thread if they wish?

[agaace]

I don't mind critiques mixed with challenge, but it's kind of annoying that you have to post the same image twice: once for challenge (because in the challenge there is usually no critiques or minimal, besides in this thread all categories are mish-mashed), and once for critiques (because submitting for critiques doesn't automatically put the photo into competition). So I usually only post in one place, either for critiques OR challenge, never both.
Having said that, an 'Entry' thread and mods sorting out everything is totally wrong for me - way way too much manual work for the mods!!

[Colin Southern]

Originally Posted by agaace

I don't mind critiques mixed with challenge, but it's kind of annoying that you have to post the same image twice

Although ...

... if you keep the URL on the clipboard it only takes a few seconds

[agaace]

I meant, it's annoying because it's doing the same manual activity twice.. My mind can't stay in peace when things that can be automated, are not automated (I know, software developers are freaks). Plus it's storing 2 posts in the database for each photo - unnecessarily double the size of the db (freaks always have their logical rationales).

[Colin Southern]

Originally Posted by agaace

Plus it's storing 2 posts in the database for each photo - unnecessarily double the size of the db (freaks always have their logical rationales).

But - if mods have to move images to a new thread (for the commentary) then (a) a 2nd record is added to the database anway, and (b) additional records are added to the system logs

If it's efficiency you like then perhaps we should all program in assembly language again

Hello World

[Dave Humphries]

Originally Posted by agaace

Having said that, an 'Entry' thread and mods sorting out everything is totally wrong for me - way way too much manual work for the mods!!

Agata, I could kiss you

Originally Posted by agaace

I don't mind critiques mixed with challenge, but it's kind of annoying that you have to post the same image twice: once for challenge (because in the challenge there is usually no critiques or minimal, besides in this thread all categories are mish-mashed), and once for critiques (because submitting for critiques doesn't automatically put the photo into competition).

When I first read this, I thought you were suggesting an automated duplication of normal thread photos being entered into the challenge - which would get it wrong far more often than right!

Now I realise what you meant was people should comment on posts in the challenge thread. (So I hope you have voted for the first option )

I think it actually works quite well as it is.

Afterall, if you have entered a shot in the challenge, to be judged against other high quality entries, it would be daft to do so with a picture you know is sub-standard. Almost by definition, it will already be as good as the submitter (e.g. you or I) can get it.

However, there's ALWAYS someone better than you or I (unless your name is Colin ) and they may be able to impart some knowledge to allow you/me improve upon our best and those are the posts that we're talking about, the unexpected suggestions, so there's really no planning for them.

Whereas if we have a shot we're not sure about; one we know isn't as good as it could be, those are the ones we put in for critique - so in reality, the likelihood of anyone wanting to put one image in both places is fairly improbable.

That's what I think anyway.

Yours (none too seriously),

[Colin Southern]

Originally Posted by Dave Humphries

Agata, I could kiss you

Careful Dave - you don't want to upset Honey!

[Dave Humphries]

Originally Posted by Colin Southern

Careful Dave - you don't want to upset Honey!

I think (sniff), she's left me (boo hoo)