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Thread: Should I be worried...

  1. #1

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    Should I be worried...

    Hi friends. Long time no see. Please excuse the lack of participation as I am away on the usual this time of year trip (in HK atm) and have been super busy with other stuff.

    Last week made a big jump - sold the 550D/T2i which I started with 2 years ago and got a 5D3.

    Back home spent a couple of evenings getting familiar with the 5D3 and only then did the loss of a 1.6 FOV hit me. My main lens is a 70-300/f4-5.6 L and that has served quite well for my style of shooting. But the loss of 180mm is making me almost regret the switch. Took it out once and was wishing that I had kept the 550D instead of selling it. 550D for birds etc and the 5D3 for other stuff.

    Below are the first couple of shots with it. At an average distance of about 37m cannot expect feather details on the birds but the eyes seem to have resolved ok. However based on past experience with similar distances and egrets the 550D should have produced slightly better feather detail then here.

    Maybe just jitters and inexperience with the new toy but ....

    Opinions/advice/suggestions please.

    Thanks.

    1. 300mm, not cropped @ 37m.
    Should I be worried...

    1a. 35% crop.
    Should I be worried...

    2. 300mm, not cropped @ 37m
    Should I be worried...

    2a. 100% crop
    Should I be worried...

    3. 420mm with Kenko 1.4, not cropped @37m
    Should I be worried...

    3a. 30% crop
    Should I be worried...

    For larger versions please use the magnification icon at this Picasa album.

    https://picasaweb.google.com/1112784...eat=directlink

  2. #2
    pnodrog's Avatar
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    Re: Should I be worried...

    Why not be worried? I'm usually worried.
    You may need to buy a longer lens or a 2X adapter but wait until you get a bit more familiar with it. Actually it is the same sort of reason I think I'll have to buy a Nikon D800 instead of the D600. In the DX mode it still has a reasonable number of pixels. Finding the extra budget is just another thing for me to worry about.

    The shot taken with the 1.4x adapter looks OK but I have not looked at it on Picasa.

  3. #3

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    Re: Should I be worried...

    Thanks Paul. Getting a new lens - now that is worrying. Already concerned with the weight here and anything longer will just add to that (a lot).

    With the 1.6 I gave myself a 50m working radius for larger birds like herons etc and progressively shorter for smaller ones. Now it looks like 30m might be the new working radius and that is really too close to expect them to be unless I get lucky.

    Will just have to shoot more and get a feel for it.

  4. #4
    pnodrog's Avatar
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    Re: Should I be worried...

    The real enthusiasts sit in a hide all day - if I did that I would probably take to much medicinal alcohol along with me and when a bird appeared I'd be in a deep slumber.

    Actually if you have the time and perseverance it is surprising how close some birds will let you get. But I like a lens long enough that I only need to wind the car window down.

  5. #5
    dubaiphil's Avatar
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    Re: Should I be worried...

    Did the rational decision : camera lust seesaw swing the wrong way?

    If you're shooting wildlife then moving to FF is potentially going to land you in a whole world of hurt for fast long glass! You'll have to get yourself a Canon 100-400 to make up for it, and let the 5D Mk III's high ISO override the slower aperture.

    Or just go for a 300 f2.8 and t/c - go on, you know you want one

  6. #6

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    Re: Should I be worried...

    Bobo: I don't know the details about the cameras you sold and bought, but cropping images captured with the new one to match the uncropped images captured with the sold one may produce about the same number of pixels. If that's the case, you've still got the same "reach" with your new camera that you had with your old camera. You might want to consider doing the math to fully understand the comparison (not that I know what the math is, but a lot of people here surely do).

    Phil and others: Bobo has mentioned that he has a problem with his sciatic nerve, so the weight of long glass could really be a problem for him.

  7. #7
    jprzybyla's Avatar
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    Re: Should I be worried...

    Hey Bobo, I hear your lament. Going from a crop sensor to a full frame is a whole new ball game. The 300mm is no longer a 45o or 460. The higher resolution is a learning curve. When I upgraded to the Nikon D7000 with 16.2 mp it took a while to learn how to get sharp images. Actually I saw Jeff Schew discussing resolution in a high definition digital camera and he said the while the old axiom was whatever the mm of the lens was that the shutter speed should be 1/ that number does not hold true now. He recommended up to double that number. Also the weight of a full frame and full frame lenses are heavy. My kit now is the D7000 and a Nikon 55-300 mm, both very light. Actually the only advantage I see in full frame is larger images. Unless the glass is 2.8 teleconverters do not work well.

  8. #8
    Shadowman's Avatar
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    Re: Should I be worried...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobobird View Post
    Thanks Paul. Getting a new lens - now that is worrying. Already concerned with the weight here and anything longer will just add to that (a lot).

    With the 1.6 I gave myself a 50m working radius for larger birds like herons etc and progressively shorter for smaller ones. Now it looks like 30m might be the new working radius and that is really too close to expect them to be unless I get lucky.

    Will just have to shoot more and get a feel for it.
    Try this link and see if it accurately matches your system.

    http://www.howardedin.com/articles/fov.html

  9. #9

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    Re: Should I be worried...

    Thanks Paul - my main reason for taking up photography was that it would make me get exercise in place of getting it in gyms. So for me it is a walk and find thing rather then a wait thing. Patience and persistence just means going back to the same place a few times until I get what I want and am satisfied with the results.

    Thanks Mike for recalling the nerve issue. Weight will be an issue with longer lens and will most certainly kill the "walk and find" routine. Since I am covered to 300 any new lens will have to be longer then that. A 400/2.8 + TC would be about right but at nearly 9kg that is not an option.

    Thanks Phil - now that you mention it that is exactly what happened. I was actually there to get a 7D and forgot all about it while playing with the AF on the 5D3. It was just too awesome not to take home and play with.

    Thanks Joe - since you have been doing great with your combo and mine is now almost the same I should stop worrying and just get on with it. There are many ways of presenting birds and not all need to be feather counting shots. Might even force myself more into birdscapes. That comment about 2xlength is pretty interesting - do you have link to that info? Thanks.

    Thanks John - very useful FOV link. Bookmarked and will experiment with the calculations once I get a new set of shots.

    The old camera was an entry level 1.6 crop Canon 550D(T2i/Rebel). After almost 2 years of intensive and rough use it was pretty battered - the hand grip was peeling off and had deep scuffs on the inside edge. The eyepiece and flash contact plate had come loose and falling out all the time. Shutter was nearing end of life. It was either spending to get it patched up and the shutter replaced or sell it and get a new one. Considering I got about half of what it originally cost was too good a deal to pass up.

  10. #10

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    Re: Should I be worried...

    I was at an event this year where I was talking to someone who had purchased a full frame instead of a 7D which was his intended purchase. We had the same lens so switched cameras for a couple of shots. Just general items at a tractor rally.

    He then started wondering about how much his camera would fetch as a trade in against a 7D.

    It also convinced me that, for the sort of photography I do, a crop sensor was the correct decision for me.

    I think the decision comes down to; in an average day, do you mostly want to get closer to the target or move further away to obtain the best scene.

    There are other advantages with those more expensive cameras though; particularly with the build and weatherproofing.

    With regard to bird lenses. I normally use my Sigma 150-500 mostly at the wider end on a 7D. And often wish for something bigger!

  11. #11

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    Re: Should I be worried...

    I agree with Mike on this as I recently, last year, moved from bridge to M4/3, and find that the much larger sensor, bigger proportionally than your change I think, permits me to crop to regain the reach I had.... the new camera has 16Mp compared with the 10Mp of the bridge.
    On the other hand as one achieves more reach the subjects know this and move further away from me ....I'm sure that is right
    [I have 950mm reach with my bridge camera and adaptor, 280 with the M4/3 ]
    With Bambi I picked up my wife's 3Mp FZ3 as the nearest camera when the family came to visit the house I was staying at. Mum was taken some weeks later on another visit with my GH2 16Mp ... both are full frames and with the second somehow I had changed the mode to B&W without knowing it until I reviewed the image.
    Should I be worried...

    Should I be worried...

    Question .. Should I be worried at spending all this money on new gear... The FZ3 was NZ$600 six to eight years ago, and the GH2 [body] was US$700.
    Last edited by jcuknz; 10th October 2012 at 08:40 PM.

  12. #12
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    Re: Should I be worried...

    Hi Bobo,

    I didn't even consider going to a cropped sensor when I bought a 5D. I had only had point and shoot digital cameras before that. Serious work was done on 35mm film and XPAN which exposed 2 35mm frames at once giving 24mm x 68mm (or thereabouts) negative. Add to that the longest lens I had was a 75 to 150mm f4 Zuiko which I bought for travel, so I won't advise on gear.

    What you have experienced is a challenge to your normal process and vision. My advice is get used to the new camera before you make any decisions on gear. You will start to see different images and then you might find a whole new direction. At least you will challenge your technique and progress. You never know you might grow to love wide angle lenses. I have found that the Canon has encouraged me to experiment with longer lenses and I now have a 300mm lens and I am thinking about a 1.4 or 2 times converter.

    Should I be worried...

    King Parrot Female full frame camera
    EF 300mm f/4L IS USM
    f8.0 ISO400

    What ever you do don't worry about it, because the 5d cameras are excellent, and will encourage new vision.


    Hope it helps
    Graham

  13. #13

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    Re: Should I be worried...

    Thanks Geoff, jc, Graham for your insights. Thanks too to the earlier posters.

    I usually buy all my camera stuff from the shop of a personal friend. He is also a very experienced photographer and helped me a lot.

    We were discussing this "worry" and this is what he had to say -

    - do you make money off your shots? No.
    - will you want to make money off your shots? No.
    - can you carry heavy gear? No.
    - even if you could, will you use heavy gear? No.
    - what are your main niggles about the 550D? Reach, burst rate, shutter speed, AF tracking, ISO handling.
    - what are your main niggles about the 5D3? Reach, and an articulated screen for low level bugs would be nice.

    He said - adjust/refine your technique, adjust how you lay out your targets in the composition, crop if still needed. Alternatively get a 300/f4 + 1.4 TC which will give as good or better IQ as the 70-300L. A minor crop and you will hit 480 FOV with no IQ issues. But that also means losing the versatility of the zoom.

    That discussion cleared up a lot of doubts. Will stick with what I have.

    As Graham says - new vision. That is perhaps more important then reach.

  14. #14

    Re: Should I be worried...

    Great shoot...
    make money with our hobby is very good since we can earn more than expense

    Should I be worried...
    Should I be worried...

  15. #15
    Loose Canon's Avatar
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    Re: Should I be worried...

    Hi Bobo!

    I'll be interested in seeing how you get on with your 5D3.

    I am tossing around acquiring another body and I'm going through the same dilemma of full frame vs. crop (7D).

    I am presently shooting with a 50D and regardless I will keep it. I know it, I'm able to get reasonably good stuff with it, and the crop factor is working to my advantage for a lot of applications. I am wondering if, with this body as a second (or first), I could be served by the advantages of full frame, low light capability, and how I am leaning with regards to what I am shooting.

    Not to mention the price difference!

    Please, Bobo, keep us informed.

    Oh and I almost forgot, Bobo...

    Congratulations on the new acquisition!
    Last edited by Loose Canon; 17th October 2012 at 11:48 PM.

  16. #16

    Re: Should I be worried...

    Hi, I also have a 50D and am thinking of either the 7D or 5DII. I will also keep my 50D.mAm leaning towards FF to compliment it. Have you made any decisions?

  17. #17

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    Re: Should I be worried...

    Are you sure the white feathers aren't blown out. It may just be my monitor on this computer. It just struck me that with a new camera exposure problems are another gotcha.

  18. #18

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    Re: Should I be worried...

    Thanks guys for the additional inputs.

    So far it is all good. High isos are handled well but past 3200 one has to be careful about the exposure. I have taken shots all the way up to 128000 and all are good though detail softens a little at the higher end. Have to test these in a a more serious manner.

    The AF system is awesome but again need to learn how to get it working at an instinctive manner.

    Range - have not shot many birds at my self set radius of 50m while using the 550D/T2i but the closer shots at 10-20m have come out ok at 300mm. So far not feeling the loss of reach that much.

    Noise - as expected some creeps in with under exposed shots but is a easy cleanup.

    @OldFrank - some of the whites are at about 250 but not blown. There is still very slight shadow detail but was not worth bringing out with these initial shots.

  19. #19

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    Re: Should I be worried...

    Thanks guys for the additional inputs.

    Been busy so have not been shooting as much as I would have liked.

    So far I have been playing around with settings that were good for the old camera so have not really put the 5D3 through its paces except the AF system.

    These 2 shots would not have been possible without that 61 point AF system and faster burst speed. Not great but now that I know it can be done, can only get better hopefully.

    1.
    Should I be worried...

    2.
    Should I be worried...

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