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Thread: Canon EOS 6D

  1. #1
    Black Pearl's Avatar
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    Canon EOS 6D

    Not getting an enthusiastic response so far:

    http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/09...0MP-full-frame

    No built in flash?
    11 focus points!
    97% Viewfinder,
    Drip Proof....

    Over $2k because it's FF but not even as well spec'd as a 600D....or the 650D.....or the 60D for that matter. It had better come down lots and very quickly or it's gonna end up a lemon.

  2. #2
    Moderator Donald's Avatar
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    Re: Canon EOS 6D

    I'm sure Canon have a very well equipped and competent market analysis team, but I cannot figure who on earth a "enthusiast-grade full frame DSLR" is really aimed at. Interesting to read the comments on the DP Review site as to what people think. Most seem a bit mystified.

  3. #3
    Black Pearl's Avatar
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    Re: Canon EOS 6D

    It's got me baffled.

  4. #4
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    Re: Canon EOS 6D

    Yeah - doesn't seem like the smartest move... and their naming conventions confuse me.

    I'm just glad that to date they have yet to release anything that makes me wish I hadn't bought my 7D when I did. Makes me happy that I made that decision.... now if I had purchased the T1i at that time, I'd be rather annoyed and wishing I had either the 2i, 3i, or 4i since they came out so quickly.

    I expect a follow-up release in the next 6 months to adjust to the criticism they get on this one.

  5. #5
    Moderator GrumpyDiver's Avatar
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    Re: Canon EOS 6D

    I tend to be on the same page as Donald. One would think that with all the focus groups and other marketing research that Canon would do to spec out a camera, they would have clearly identified the market niche they were after.

    They clearly have designed a product that will in no way canabalize the 5D Mk III market segment. The important feature set seems to say that they are not targeting the serious amateur shooter and the price point is clearing not targeting the entry level to mid-range market segment. The 5D Mk II and 7D are both less expensive and are a better value.

  6. #6
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    Re: Canon EOS 6D

    Maybe a response to the FF hype. Other websites are full of postings by people who don't know how to control a camera who are convinced that they need FF.

    One interesting post I read suggests that Canon is moving (back?) to 4 market segments:
    1. Entry (Rebels)
    2. Consumer (60D, 6D)
    3. Enthusiast or semi pro (7D, 5DMkIII)
    4. Pro

    That does seem to fit pretty well. For those of us who consider themselves in group 3 and may have to replace a camera, this would be a pretty stark choice. It also makes me wonder how long they will maintain an APS-C for group 3.

  7. #7
    Moderator GrumpyDiver's Avatar
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    Re: Canon EOS 6D

    Quote Originally Posted by DanK View Post
    Maybe a response to the FF hype. Other websites are full of postings by people who don't know how to control a camera who are convinced that they need FF.

    One interesting post I read suggests that Canon is moving (back?) to 4 market segments:
    1. Entry (Rebels)
    2. Consumer (60D, 6D)
    3. Enthusiast or semi pro (7D, 5DMkIII)
    4. Pro

    That does seem to fit pretty well. For those of us who consider themselves in group 3 and may have to replace a camera, this would be a pretty stark choice. It also makes me wonder how long they will maintain an APS-C for group 3.
    My guess is that you are exactly right on the moving the midrange market to FF. Potentially, as sensor production technology continues to evolve, the APS-C might totally disappear. Right now Canon (and Nikon) have to produce and stock four lines of lenses:

    1. Entry-level APS-C;
    2. Enthusiasts APS-C;
    3. Enthusiast FF; and
    4. Pro FF.

    From a manufacturing and inventory this is a fairly expensive scenario; every manufacturer I can think of wants to minimize the number of SKUs they support. If you drive the enthusiasts to FF, you can drop the APS-C enthusiast line of lenses. I strongly suspect most people that shoot entry level cameras go with one or two lenses, and additional glass is going to be used by the enthusiast class user, If you move everyone to the FF, you can drop the entry level APS-C lenses too. You can drop or reallocate the lens design team as well, as there are fewer lens designs to support.

    From a pure business standpoint, standardizing on a single sensor does make sense, so long as the cost the sensors keep coming down. That is likely to happen as the fabs move to ever larger wafer diameters. This standardization would line up with the 35mm film days, where a uniform format was used across the board so far as camera bodies and lenses went.

  8. #8
    Black Pearl's Avatar
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    Re: Canon EOS 6D

    Sorry but it still has me baffled.

    I get where Canon would like it to sit in their range - somewhere above the 60D sector with enthusiasts moving to a FF sensor, some of whom are likely to already own the odd L lens. What I don't get is how a current 60D owner is going to feel when they find out they've lost their built-in flash with its wireless control and who will also wonder where their other eight cross sensors have gone from the AF system.
    Not all of these people will have invested in FF lenses so they could well be reconciled with the need for a big change - not wanting to start a Nikon/Canon war - but they will look at the new D600 and see it has pretty much everything they want for essentially the same price. if it crashes in cost very quickly it might still do well but it is going to come under very heavy criticism until then and get a beating on forums.

  9. #9
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    Re: Canon EOS 6D

    Actually, I think that an entry level full frame camera might sell quite well. There is an theory amongst many photographers, who cannot get a decent image with their 1.6x cameras, that once they switch to full frame, there will be an epiphany and suddenly their mundane images will glow with creativity and technical excellence. A less expensive FF camera will allow them to test that theory... making Canon rich in the interim!

    OTOH - forcing photographers away from using the bult-in flash is a plus, no matter how you look at it!
    Last edited by rpcrowe; 17th September 2012 at 10:34 PM.

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    Moderator GrumpyDiver's Avatar
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    Re: Canon EOS 6D

    Quote Originally Posted by rpcrowe View Post
    Donald, I am surprised that you don't know that the head of Canon's Market Analysis team is Mrs. Takahachi who leads that team when she can spare the time from her main job of cleaning the Canon Headquarter's bathrooms.

    Mrs. Takahachi was responsible for the brilliant coup of not including IS capability in the 24-70mm f/2.8L ii lens and for introducing the Canon 270EX Speedlite without slave capability. She corrected that by introducing the 270EX ii with slave capability which left the owners ot the original 270EX units high and dry. Maybe she will introduce a 24-70mm f/2.8L IS iii lens.

    I am awaiting more brillliant innovations from Mrs. T.. I hear that she is arguing the merits of including an espresso maker in the next Canon camera; but others on the Canon chain of command are lobbying for a green tea dispenser instead!
    Brilliant Richard!

    I personally suspect that it wasn't the Marketing Research Team so much as it was Canon's Finanace organization. I'm sure that the Market Research team did all their focus groups and polled representative buyers of their higher end comsumer cameras and came out with something quite interesting.

    Markteting Research Department - "We have a brilliant new camera and we will be able to sell millions of them".

    Finance Department - "Our analysis shows that this new product will canablize 5D Mk III sales by 20%. We have a 70% profit margin on that line and only a 50% on the 6D. We must protect our profit margins".

    Marketing Research - "But all those APS-C users will have to upgrade their lenses to full-frame ones". Look at all of the money we will make with the upgrades".

    Finance Department - "You can't count the money from lens sales as part of your marketing strategy. The new camera has to stand on its own. And now that you told us about all those extra lenses you are going to sell, you will have to find a way of pulling that off without affecting the 5D Mk III sales".

    Marketing Department - "Okay; lets remove features like the flash and the advanced focusing features and throw in something that no serious shooter would pay for; how about a built-in GPS". We'll launch a marketing campain explaining how important full-frame is if you want to be taken seriously as a photographer. Serious photographers will laugh at it and buy the 5D Mk III. Amateurs always fall for the bigger is better line".

    Finance Department - "Good plan. Lets get this into production."

    By the way; the Nikon f/2.8 24-70mm is not stabilized either. Do we have some collusion between the two companies?

  11. #11

    Re: Canon EOS 6D

    I'm with Dan and Richard,
    I think the 6D has a very clearly defined market - the idiots who think they "need" a full frame camera. AKA all those people who haven't learned to use their entry level camera to actually take decent photos and are convinced that going FF will suddenly make them great photographers.

  12. #12
    Black Pearl's Avatar
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    Re: Canon EOS 6D

    The thing is there are people (unfortunately quite a lot of people) out there that believe the only path to better photography starts with a full frame camera. They are convinced the only reason they can't get a good picture now is because their camera has a cropped sensor and the world will suddenly become a happy, sunlit place full of wide angles, bokeh and noiseless images as soon as they 'upgrade.' The mythical, lost world place around their current sensor that must be filled with Ansel Adam pixels will instantly transport their images to a place where they will make the Gods cry for joy.

    Rubbish!

    If you can't take a decent picture with a crop sensor there's not a hope in Hell or anywhere on this planet of you taking a decent picture with a full frame one. In fact the extra demands they put on lenses and technique will have you weeping your heart away - probably why the 6D is drip proof - as you realise it's you that is to blame and not your kit.
    Last edited by Black Pearl; 18th September 2012 at 08:13 AM.

  13. #13

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    Re: Canon EOS 6D

    Only one less feature made me not interested in buying it, the absence of the adjustable LCD. The GPS is something I don't need at all and the fact they lost the flash to accomodate that, is another minus point.

    With in-built flash and adjustable screen I would have bought it to replace my 60D even if differences are small.

    I really don't care if somebody puts me in that "idiot" class, I know exactly what I want.

  14. #14
    rpcrowe's Avatar
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    Re: Canon EOS 6D

    Actually, I hope that everyone who buys the 6D will suddenly be ble to take National Geographic Magazine worthy pictures. I will be happy to continue with my 7D which is one damn fine camera.

  15. #15
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    Re: Canon EOS 6D

    A video interview about the 6D taken at Photokina.

  16. #16
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    Re: Canon EOS 6D

    Interesting video, Warrick.

    I hope it has the "P" professional mode setting (in a larger letter size than usual).

    Kind of sounds to me like it is geared toward the recreational travel shooter - someone with a little extra money to spend on a full frame camera, who would like the GPS and WiFi options... maybe someone who is going to let it sit around in a drawer when they are not on vacation.

    I'm a little surprised they didn't shoehorn a cell phone in there somewhere, though...

  17. #17
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    Re: Canon EOS 6D

    I am clearly going against the grain here but I like the idea of the 6D, though ultimately it will be the image quality that sways it for me one way or the other.

    I want an additional, cheap, full frame body for backup and occasional use. I don't care if it's classed as a pro, semi pro, enthusiast or beginners piece of kit. I earn the same money regardless of which bodies, lenses or other accessories I take with me on a job and why spend more than you need to?

    I'm not interested in a pop-up flash or an articulated screen.

    The AF is a bit lacking but should prove to be at least as good as the 5D II which was/is good enough, I mainly use the centre point anyway.

    I'm also not bothered by the lack of on-chip phase-detection to aid autofocus in live view/movie mode as I don't shoot movies and I use the viewfinder not the screen. Yes I know it's only 97% coverage but that's only 1% different from the 5DII viewfinder which was fine and I doubt that I'll notice the difference.

    I will make use of the Wi-Fi (less so the GPS). Wish Wi-Fi was built in to all my bodies, have you seen the price of Canons Wi-Fi grips?

    Splash and dust resistant is good enough for me, that's all the 7D sealing is described as and I've put one of those through hell and back without any problems.

    I'd prefer to stick to CF cards for convenience, but having to buy a handful of SD cards won't kill me, I hope.

    So if the image quality turns out to be good enough then put me down for one, or just put me down as an idiot.

    Cheers,
    A

  18. #18

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    Re: Canon EOS 6D

    Quote Originally Posted by Donald View Post
    I'm sure Canon have a very well equipped and competent market analysis team, but I cannot figure who on earth a "enthusiast-grade full frame DSLR" is really aimed at. Interesting to read the comments on the DP Review site as to what people think. Most seem a bit mystified.
    There is a market for the 6D, it’s people like me... Someone who’s taken pictures with a film SLR for years. Please note my choice of phrase there, “Someone who’s taken pictures...”, that’s someone who’s above ‘point and shoot’ but below ‘enthusiast’. Someone who thinks they know what they are doing and because they do understand the basics of f-stops and shutter speeds can get the odd decent shot but most of the time their pictures are just ordinary yet despite this they are happy with their efforts. Someone therefore who feels safe with a std 35mm frame because they have a lot of time invested in that format.

    From the perspective this type of person a crop camera is bound to be a lesser beast because, well, it’s cropped, the sensor is smaller. Then there is the problem with the crop factor, which means an everyday 28-80ish lens isn’t as wide as it should be and your 200mm lens that previously you could get away with hand held because you’re familiar with it and you know the limits, is now that much longer so you can’t. You feel that your years of experience are useless. The solution is obvious; you need a full frame digital.

    Eighteen months ago that was me. My 25yr+ old film SLR was becoming temperamental. Slide film was getting ever more expensive and harder to source on the high street. I was going to go digital. Why mess around with a crop camera? Why not just bite the bullet and go in at the top, so that your instantly out of date investment will still be more than you need in several years time? I had it all planned. I even had identified where I was going to get the money for a FF digital SLR. All I had to do was decide on was the camera itself.

    Then, unexpectedly, I was given a Canon 400D. Not the newest DSLR on the planet and only with the kit 18-55 (non IS) lens together with a Tamron 55-200 (non IS). Even by my average standards my first attempts with this camera and lenses were rubbish. The solution was obvious I needed FF, so that my years of experience would translate seamlessly to the new world of digital.

    Canon & Nikon will have done their market research, they’ll know how many of us who think like this are out there. Their homework will also have shown them that start up cost of a FF body is the biggest thing holding back purchasing. It is logical to launch ‘low cost’ FF.

    It’s too easy to brand us as ‘Idiots’. It’s more complicated than that. Try naive, simplistic, ignorant, not open minded, etc.

    My story doesn’t end here though! My early experiences also niggled something in me that made me wonder if perhaps before I spent all that money on a FF it might be worth getting some decent advice on the world of digital. Digital, clearly, was not film, I was missing something.

    Google searches turned up the CiC tutorials and so I arrived here and now, 18 months, on I’m pleased to report that while I’m not cured of my desire for FF I do realise I don’t actually need it.

    Ken

  19. #19
    Black Pearl's Avatar
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    Re: Canon EOS 6D

    Canon & Nikon will have done their market research, they’ll know how many of us who think like this are out there. Their homework will also have shown them that start up cost of a FF body is the biggest thing holding back purchasing. It is logical to launch ‘low cost’ FF.
    They will have and while I don't want to start a Nikon/Canon war here the resulting bodies that have just released for essentially the same price are very different. Nikon have made a FF body out of the D7000 which is well respected, well received and has a level of specification that will let just about any photographer grow into their purchase. I can't help but feel that Canon have deliberately removed things to protect the margins on their more expensive 5D MkIII.

    Not everyone wants a 100% viewfinder - but a camera that costs nearly £2000 should have one.
    Not everyone needs a built in flash - but with the advent of wireless flash control it is a major feature that many Canon bodies have these days.
    Not everyone needs lots of fancy focusing points - but the cheaper bodies have them (as does the D600) so why not fit it in a £2k body.
    Not everyone needs a FF body - they might think they do but it isn't the cure many hope it will be.

    While the 6D may be a budget FF camera it is still a £2000 camera body and it should have a minimum level of specification to keep potential buyers happy.

  20. #20

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    Re: Canon EOS 6D

    Quote Originally Posted by rpcrowe View Post
    There is an theory amongst many photographers, who cannot get a decent image with their 1.6x cameras, that once they switch to full frame, there will be an epiphany and suddenly their mundane images will glow with creativity and technical excellence.
    this made me chuckle !

    it has something that has long baffled me as to why so many people are hung up on Full Frame......

    The standard of the APS-C and the 16mp m4/3 cameras are ssssoooo much better than most users really need.

    as to the 6d? it has the name Canon on it so many people will shell out for it.......... and as a Nikon/Panasonic user that wasn't a swipe at Canon. I'm sure the 6d will take great photos as all Canon cameras are in the right hands.

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