Just Smile and Nod

[greenusmarine53]

Hi to all who read this and a hearty hello! to those who answer.

My first post here and I already want something from you. Yes rather than go out and learn the information for my self, I came here to pester you fine folks.

But I am not a complete imbecile (almost but not quite) and I have taken the time to learn what I can. Life has the tendency to get in my way and I cannot learn by reading alone. This has led me to my current situation. I am in need of some skill and advice and I hope that some of you can provide both.

I am writing tutorials (for a different hobby) and I need to take progress photos. I have a Canon S70 PowerShot and I have managed some really nice black-and-whites and a few decent over-exposures (I believe that’s what it’s called when people and moving objects blur) but please do not judge me too harshly for incorrect terminology. I have every intention of learning all of this; I just need the correct environment.

You might want to start cringing now. I have two desk lamps with incandescent bulbs and one ceiling light with a florescent bulb and the camera’s flash. Obviously my pictures come out yellowish in hue (sepia without intention).

I need a quickie solution to fix this without spending too much money (wife’s a penny pincher). I was thinking of replacing the lamp bulbs with florescent, creating a “box” for lack of a better term out of a white bed sheet and tent poles (for now! ) but I need to know what my camera settings should be, if I need a light meter (that’s probably a duh) and whatever else you can think of. These shots will need to be done as close as I can get but so far I get really bluury shots any closer than a few feet. I have been using a magnifying glass to get some detail (you can stop shaking your head now.

I understand completely that this is…uh…ghetto, but again it’s only temporary until I can afford better equipment. Consider me clay and you can mold me into your image. Now, bring on the questions with the understanding that I know zilch. Just tell me what you would do (besides not do it) pleeeaaase.

And thank you very much for your time.

Les

[atvinnys]

sounds to me you have a white balance. Given the combination of different lights (incandescent and fluorescent are really different spectrums)..., not sure how to fix those, so I leave that to the experts...(not sure the powershot can even toggle this..)...ok, that was a pretty useless post...oh well

[rustyshutter71]

Hi Les,

Firstly, thanks for an amusing post (meant in the nicest possible way).

I'm sure others will chip in with what I overlook here, so here goes;

Having looked up your camera, you could do far worse; it seems very capable and includes a 'macro' setting - using this will enable you to get much closer to your subject without it going blurry and be a better option than the magnifying glass for close ups.

Have a look at http://www.steves-digicams.com/2004_reviews/s70.html (there are several pages) to see what it can do, especially if you don't have the camera's manual to refer to.

It would help to know what size your subjects are; "desk lamps" implies quite small, but "sheet and tentpole" makes me think somewhat larger.

What size the subject is, and as a result, how close each light source is to it, will have a big effect on which light sources are actually significantly contributing and any colour (color?) cast resulting.

If the subject is say, tea cup sized (hey, I'm English!), lit by the desk lamps, all placed on a table/bench top, then chances are that they are (due to the relative distances from the four lamps to the subject) the predominant source. I suspect the fluorescent room light isn't having much effect.

Especially if you have a tripod, you're probably best to forget the camera's flash and use the desk lamps. If you're hand holding and the subject isn't too shiny/relective, you might get away with using the flash alone, at least until you've learned a bit more and got a tripod (or beanbag).

The yellow/sepia hue might be an indication that the camera's "white balance" is set to the sunny or cloudy setting rather than tungsten (for desk lamps with hot bulbs) or fluorescent (if desk lamps have tubes). Set the white balance for whatever is the brighest light at the subject.

I think that's enough guess work on my part, I hope some of it helps, and let us know a bit more about what it is you are shooting, it might make some of the above laughable!

Welcome to the hobby and all the best, Dave

[tirediron]

As the others have said, definitely a white-balance issue. Regardless of the setting on your camera, when you're using mixed light sources, things are never going to come out quite right. The first thing I would suggest is to use bulbs of all the same temperature, ideally around 5600K (Normal sunlight). Incandescent bulbs of this temperature are hard to find, but Michael's type craft-stores and any big lamp/lighting store will carry either incandescent or CFL-style daylight bulbs. The other suggestion (and your wife will like this one, it's dirt cheap) is to use a piece of perfectly white paper as a control, so set your scene, once it's illuminated to your satisfaction, take your first exposure with a piece of bright white paper where the subject would be (Bright white copy paper will work) and when you do your PP, set a white point based on that piece of paper, and all your colours should come out fairly close to correct.

~John

[greenusmarine53]

Thank you all very much for the help. Rustyshutter, it's okay that you're English. It turns out that after years of being told I was Gealic in decent, I too am English, though a few generations removed. And once when I was in New York, I was kissed by two very beautiful English woman on the cheek, and an Englishman as well (he was married to one of the Englishwoman and we were all arse-over-tit. . That makes us practically cousins. Who knew that coming from such a cold island, the people could be so warm.

Okay, it's the next day and I'm at work. What better time to fool off? As you can see from the middle pic, the subject, a plastic model, is fairly small. About three inches and the desk lamps are, hmmm...two to three feet away.

As I suspected, changing the bulbs sounds like it will help. Change the macro, got it. I was good all the way up to "when you do your PP." I sniggered a bit on that but I am certain you were being serious when you said...hehe...PP. Okay no, seriously, sorry. What does PP mean and how do I do it. Am I also correct in assuming that the white point is set in the camera? I'll go look that up now.

The middle picture below is of the same type that I'll be taking from now on. While this model is white, others will range from light gray to white. What ever color the plastic is. Again thank you all very much.






Edit (after some research) - I looked, still can't figure out what PP is. Learned about macro, ISO, Av, Tv, and while I’m getting most of it, I…tell you what. I’ll tell you what I think I need and then you correct it.

First, get better lighting. My camera has no presets for incandescent lighting, only florescent and tungsten (which, I am assuming means those big light stands with the diffusers on the front that they use in pro photo shoots). Do I buy “hotter” lamps or whiter lamps or are they the same? Would florescent bulbs work for now?

Next, change macro to uh…super? You know what, don’t tell me. I’ll figure it out.

Okay, ISO. Since the room is going to be darker than brighter but ample light on the subject, I believe I set the ISO on the low side, because too much higher and I start getting a lot of “noise.” Or do I have it backward?

I’ll probably want a higher aperture because the subject is so close and I’ll be doing the “picture is worth a thousand words" thing by not just having the model in the center but whatever tools I am using at the time lying around it and I'd like to capture it all.

I don’t know if shutter speed matters here but if it does I am assuming I want it in the higher ranges to help ward off camera shake since I don’t own a tripod yet.

So, do I got it, am I there or do I need more nudging in the right direction? I am at your mercy. I could find nothing on PP or how to set the white point, so please clarify.

Again, a very warm thank you.

[rustyshutter71]

Hey cousin,

Yep you're heading the right way mostly.

First the easy bit to stop the sniggers; PP = Post Processing; i.e. what you do to the pics with a bit of software on your PC/Mac.

Incandescent and Tungsten are (for these purposes) the same thing, the words are effectively interchangeable.
Yes, you do set the WB (white balance) in camera, I'd say choose tungsten, unless you've been out to get the 'daylight' lamps as Tirediron suggested.

When I was talking of 'hot' lamps, I was thinking of 'burning' temperature, not colour temperature. 'Daylight' lamps are a 'cooler' colour temp than normal household tungsten lamps, they do this by either having a blue coating on the glass of a filament bulb, or are the CFL (Compact Fluorescent) type with a 'white-blue' phosphor rather than the more 'pink' variety that may be described as 'warm-white'.

On camera settings for your model pictures;
Yes, keep shutter speed at 1/125 or higher if possible (to minimise risk of camera shake)
Yes, you have the noise thing the correct way, higher ISO = more noise, so keep as low as you can.
Yes, a higher aperture figure (as in f8 - f16) will give more front to back distance in focus than f4.

Trouble is those three are going to be difficult to achieve at the same time, compromise is inevitable without a lot of light, which, if incandescent, could warp the plastic.
Flash would get over this last problem, but at the cost of flat, hard lighting (as you only have the on-camera flash).

Glad to help, most here know more than I and are far more experienced at PP, so it's good to be able to helpfully contribute once in a while.

[shreds]

Just a question to kick off with.... Why is it necessary to take this shot indoors? Assuming it is not raining/snowing or too windy, nothing beats natural daylight.

You can still use a 'tent/backcloth' to eliminate distracting backgrounds, but one of the main problems with this type of photography is getting sufficient light onto the subject. Even outdoors you may still want to supplement sunlight, but beware of strong shadows.

I have done quite a few commissions for magazines to photograph similar small scale objects, and in most cases the first question I ask is 'can we move outdoors to take the shots?' I know this is the case with many other photographers who regularly tackle such subjects.

By having more light on the subject, you can create a greater depth of field, and believe me, this will be your biggest challenge; to stop the detail going out of focus at the rear of the shot. (hint: actually focus on a mid way point and ensure you have stopped down the aperture to something like f18 or f22 or more to maximise your depth of field. (sorry, not sure if this can be done with your camera)

Definitely use the camera on its macro setting, as has been said, the closer you can get to the object and fill the frame, the more pleasing will be the final result and less to distract the eye as long as it is still in focus (there will be a minimum distance noted in the manual beyond which you cannot go without ending up with a partially blurry picture)

Oh and you say you don't have a tripod...well whatever you do don't try handholding the camera. Many household objects can suffice to be stand in tripods, anything that provides a firm surface for the camera to rest on. (pile of books, stool, cushion and if you want it at an angle looking down on the object you might even try tilting the camera and securing it with blu-tack or similar sticky putty type stuff (from a stationers) and then use a shutter delay function, so that you are not even touching the camera when the shutter operates. It will make a huge difference and allow you to use slower shutter speeds if necessary.

Keep posting and let us know how it progresses.

[greenusmarine53]

I am having more and more success by following your suggestions and advice as well as reading the manual. Go figure! The shutter delay is a great suggestion, I hadn't thought of that. I thought I was going to have to buy a remote.

Moving it out doors could work, but as the photos are being taken as I progress through the model build, getting up every few minutes had its drawbacks too. I am having some luck with the fluorescent lighting and some minor adjustments in Photoshop. I know I am not getting professional results, but I am learning and for that I thank you guys.

I will of course continue to post pictures.