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Thread: working distance chart

  1. #1
    tonyjr's Avatar
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    working distance chart

    I have searched and can not find a chart for the working distance of different canon lenses .

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    Re: working distance chart

    Here is a link to a site with data on Canon lenses. Click on the headings under the word Canon to bring up different types of lenses (fixed, zoom, macro, etc.). It will list the closest focusing distance in the lens info.

    http://www.europepress.com/lenses/canon_lenses.htm

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    Re: working distance chart

    Thank you . I have several different versions of ef lens work [ 1 , 2 and 3 - various editions [ . Minimum focus distance is in them .
    There is a difference between the Minimum focus and the Minimum working distance .
    The working distance of a macro lens describes the distance between the front of your lens and the subject. This is different from the closest focusing distance, which is instead (usually) measured from the camera's sensor to the subject.
    http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tut...cro-lenses.htm

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    Re: working distance chart

    Once you know the CFD (Closest Focussing Distance) of any Lens, the (closest) Working Distance is the CFD minus the distance from the end of the lens to the Focal Plane of the Camera, which is designated on the camera body by the symbol PHI (ɸ).

    Usually the WD does not have to be exact to within the mm and therefore the distance from the lens to the Focal Plane of the Camera can be easily reckoned with a measure, for each lens.

    It should be quite easy to make a table of WD for your lenses.

    This example is measuring the Distance from the Plane of Sharp Focus (at the Subject) to the Focal Plane of the Camera (note the symbol “ɸ“ on the camera): but measuring the distance to the front of all your lenses would be even a easier procedure.
    working distance chart

    WW

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    Re: working distance chart

    Thank you , I book marked this post . Maybe on canon the closest focus distance is the minimum working distance .
    I kind of get confused when looking at DOF charts .
    For the 180 macro , the chart shows a dof of 1 ft to 1 ft . Should be zero and not be able to focus at 1 foot .
    Going back to the other web address you posted and read it .
    OK it was just the picture .
    Nice DOF of shot - was it done with a - P & S ?

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    William W's Avatar
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    Re: working distance chart

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyjr View Post
    Maybe on canon the closest focus distance is the minimum working distance.
    Maybe, but I would guess not.


    Quote Originally Posted by tonyjr View Post
    For the 180 macro , the chart shows a dof of 1 ft to 1 ft . Should be zero and not be able to focus at 1 foot.
    What DoF Chart says that? I would be interested in reading it, please.

    WW

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    Re: working distance chart

    http://www.dofmaster.com/doftable.html
    Type in 180 and 7d
    http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html
    This one Type in 180 , 7d , 1 Ft and f 4 /f 5.6 or f 8 .
    I prefer f 5.6 or f 8 but not unusual to hit f 4 or f 11 - seldom 2.8 or f 16 but have gone to f 32
    http://www.tawbaware.com/maxlyons/calc.htm
    This one type in 180 , 7d , 1 Ft and f 5.6 .
    http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tut...calculator.htm
    This one says .3 meters
    I book marked these - my memory is terrible under DOF .

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    William W's Avatar
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    Re: working distance chart

    OK . . .

    I see your confusion.

    Those are NOT Depth of Field CHARTS /TABLES for a SPECIFIC Lens.

    They are Depth of Field CALCULATORS for FOCAL LENGTHS of VARIOUS LENSES when used on VARIOUS CAMERAS.

    A CALCULATOR assumes that all VARIATIONS are POSSIBLE.

    WW


    Footnote:
    [Capitalization is for the emphasis of KEY words and to note the meaning thereof.
    I am not shouting at you.]
    Last edited by Dave Humphries; 22nd May 2012 at 09:49 AM.

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    Re: working distance chart

    Hi Tony,

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyjr
    For the 180 macro , the chart shows a dof of 1 ft to 1 ft . Should be zero and not be able to focus at 1 foot .

    http://www.dofmaster.com/doftable.html
    Type in 180 and 7d
    Bill's reply correctly states that generic tables of calculated values cannot know where specific lenses cannot focus down to.

    Since it was a table of near and far distances (not DoF), what is shown is correct, it shouldn't be zero.

    If your need is for information that specific, you will have to find the specific data for the lenses you own and their manufacturer is going to be the best place to start (Canon?), I'm sure they have such data, possibly as a graph though, it may not normally be publically available, but you can always ask.


    Also, most of those links are not Macro DoF tables, the relatively large units of measure and the distances down the left hand side are the clue to that.

    If anyones current interest includes macro shooting then they'll have to find a tables that deal better with the short distances involved and has units of measure in mm or inches and focus ranges that span up to say 0.5 to 1m, not infinity.

    However, my over-riding suggestion to you, well anyone, is just to try photographing 10 things at different distances and magnifications and I'm sure you'll soon develop an 'instinct' or 'feel' for what the DoF and working distances are for your lens. Nothing beats practical experience.

    Good luck,

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    Re: working distance chart

    That makes a lot more sense . Sorry long post
    History - skip if you want
    BAD knees , I was going to have a total knee replacement done late August / early September - Came back from Mexico Doctor retired - new one coming - was jerked around till Feb . - changed Doctors . Total knee done in March .
    I have wanted to do a time lapse of one of my brugmansia's for years . Last year took cuttings so I could bring smaller plant in house . None have buds yet . Bad knees and really bored . Since I already own everything I need except the knowledge - I started looking and kind of got side tracked with DOF .
    Where I am at with time lapse - - -
    Right now
    Camera and flash in manual on Bogen tripod – may have to use gimbal head from Benro tripod

    Lens = 10-22 – set around 14 mm for DOF

    An F stop of F 8 is to small - can cause shutter flicker = F 4 OR 5.6 do test shots for DOF
    Looks like a speed of 1/30 , probably 1/60 with flash - faster can cause shutter flicker – check if camera and flash in manual will work at 1/30

    May need an ND filter to compensate for sun during day – do a few test shots if no answer to posed question

    Shoot large JPEG - and RAW - I have a 16 GB - should be big enough

    Since I want to do an angels trumpet [ brugmansia ] and flower hangs down - the flash should be under camera - pointed up – shadows

    Get WB as close as possible . Shoot in raw , and then check shot for WB that looks best and set

    I took a few measurements yesterday [ 5-14-12 ]
    bud closed - about 3 inches long - hanging at about 30 degrees
    A fully open flower is about 14 inches long 6 inches wide[ not counting tentacles ] and hanging at about 70 degrees – for just flower and bud in focus = at least 2 feet DOF .
    Set intravalometer [ TC-80N3 ] at 1 shot an hour infinite shots

    Suggestions very welcome - my gear for suggestions
    1st it's a hobby
    7D gripped XTI gripped
    Canon - efs 10-22 , 17-55 , ef 18-55 IS , EF 28-90 , 28 @ 2.8 , 35 2 , 50 @1.8 , 50 1.4 , 28-135 IS
    L's 35-350 , 70-200 MK II IS , non canon - Quantaray lens 70-300 macro , Sigma 135 - 400 , 180 MACRO
    2X III , Life Size converter , UV , KSM filters for all , B +W ND 3 AND 6 FOR 58 AND 77 MM adapter rings to rest
    Kenko auto tubes , EF 25 , various size type hoods [ plastic , metal , rubber ] monopods and tripods .
    Thanks , if you made it this far - suggestions are always welcome -

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    William W's Avatar
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    Re: working distance chart

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyjr View Post
    An F stop of F 8 is to small - can cause shutter flicker= F 4 OR 5.6 do test shots for DOF . . .
    Actually F/8 might cause “Aperture Flicker” – but that small point aside - you should try the Lens Twist Method to address this phenomenon – I’ve not used it on a 7D, so I am just assuming it works.

    This guy has a reasonable explanation of the method, to save my typing fingers: http://blog.planet5d.com/2011/11/get...-twist-method/

    F/8 (or even F/11) will be better for you to use to get the DoF you require.

    ***

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyjr View Post
    Lens = 10-22 – set around 14 mm for DOF
    I read and understand that you have made length measurements of the Flower and from that, then calculated the DoF you require.

    The Focal Length of the Lens will not matter that much as the DoF will be, for practical purposes the same, provided the FRAMING is constant.

    So therefore I suggest you should choose a FL which suits a comfortable working distance AND you choose the best suited lens for the job.

    This might mean that you do eventually choose the 10 to 22 . . . BUT as you have many lenses from which to choose, let’s discuss a few points:

    A Zoom Lens, because of the design and placement of the elements will be intrinsically more prone to Flare – A Prime will not.
    A zoom Lens’s Lens Hood is practically useless – A Prime Lens’s Hood is much more effective.
    The number and Shape of the Aperture Blades might be a factor.
    IF you use a Filter, then better NOT to use step up rings.

    These are the main points – there might be more I am typing / thinking quickly.

    In any case a quick scan of the gear you have I am thinking like this -

    You probably want to be reasonably close, so something between 10mm and 50mm on a 7D.

    The 10 to 22 – is a zoom I don’t like that for Flare and the lens hood; has 6 Blades I do like that; I do like it is a zoom such that it is more flexible providing a range of FLs
    The 28/2.8 has FIVE blades I don’t like that. Is a Prime I like that. The lens hood will be very effective
    The 35/5 same comments as the 28/2.8 and added - it has good Flare resistance
    The 50/1.88MkII (I assume it is a MkII) – same comments as F35/2
    The 50/1.4 same comments as the 35/2 and added it has excellent Flare Resistance and it has eight blades and I like that.

    So, If I were shooting this time lapse and I had all those lenses from which to choose I would be looking at setting up with the 50/1.4, IF I could make the necessary SHOOTING DISTANCE to get the FRAMING required, for the DoF required - - - But I recognize that might be too far away from the Flower.

    My next choice would be the 28, because I guess it will be as good as and not worse than the 35, but allow you to be closer.

    I would execute caution using the 10 to 22 zoom for all the reasons I have mentioned.

    And added to those reasons I would be very careful if using the lens much wider than FL = 20mm, because of the anomalies which wide angle lens can introduce: as some examples - Keystone, Foreshortening and Parallel Distortions.

    These anomalies are commonly grouped together and then (technically incorrectly) referred to as “Perspective Distortion”.

    ***

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyjr View Post
    Looks like a speed of 1/30, probably 1/60 with flash - faster can cause shutter flicker – check if camera and flash in manual will work at 1/30
    From the way you have written this it occurs to me that you might not fully understand all the Principles of Flash Photography.

    Assuming the Iris is stopping down to the same diameter for each exposure and the Flash is set to Manual Mode and the output of it is set to always correctly expose the Flower, then the Shutter Speed (provided it is slower or equally to the Flash Sync of the Camera) is (almost always) [*1] irrelevant to the correct exposing of THE FLOWER.

    The Shutter Speed will determine the exposure of the remainder of the scene (in this case the background), which is illuminated by the ambient light.

    So therefore, for example: IF the correct exposure for the FLOWER when using Manual Flash is “F/8 @ ISO XXX” [*2], then you can set the SHUTTER SPEED at whatever to suit how you want the BACKGROUND to appear, or to change appearance as the AMBIENT LIGHT changes.

    WW


    Footnotes:

    [*1] Provided that the Flash Exposure is a least (about) 1½ Stops more than the Ambient Exposure

    [*2] Note that the Flash exposure need not mention the Shutter Speed

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    Re: working distance chart

    Thank you - For taking time to post
    I broke the 50 macro by it not being locked in / on

    http://www.lightstalking.com/timelapse
    Aperture Flicker and How to Adjust For It
    Besides flicker caused by changing exposures and gaps between photos, there are other causes to watch out for. If you use a small aperture – such as f/8 or higher – your shutter moves a lot from one photo to the next, going from its dormant wide-open state to the smaller size of your chosen aperture – the higher the f/stop, the more it moves. Each time your shutter moves, it never really goes back to the exact same place it did before due to slight miscalculations. For regular photography, this doesn’t matter – but for time lapses, it can cause flicker.
    This is where I got the F 4 or 5.6
    I looked at the DOF charts and at 5 feet , The DOF should cover bud to flower and leaves . When this flower open , it starts to droupe move several inches
    The 28/2.8 I never have liked it has crapy Flare resistance [ I figured it was the coatings ]
    The 35 is has better flare control , but I don't like the manual focus - seems to jump / hard to lock on with tripod - I remove my hand and focus changes - OK but slow in AF
    The 50/1.8 is a mk 1 will the II is cheap enough - I don't like the plastic
    To tell the truth , I just don't use the primes since I got the 17-55
    The same with the 180 macro - the 70-200 mk II is just so much better
    The 10-22 , I know does weird things when not level and square and I do a lot of cropping with it .
    The way the bud and flower move , I figure the flash would have to under camera to cut down on shadows , strong enough to make the flower about the same shade of color at night that is has during the day .
    You are right , I don't know that much about flash . I read up a little on the 580 last night , from that I got I can use any shutter speed I want from about 1/25 to 1/60 - maybe be important if I have to use an ND
    I have about 8 feet for plant [ in 5 gallon pot ] tripod - etc
    I also have the opteka ring light that you can run off the wall with a 3 volt adapter . It is either on or off , does not have connection to camera except where mounted to lens .
    Thanks again . Still reading up on the 580 II - the blue crane video did not help much .

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    Re: working distance chart

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyjr View Post
    1. I broke the 50 macro by it not being locked in / on

    2. Besides flicker caused by changing exposures and gaps between photos, there are other causes to watch out for. If you use a small aperture – such as f/8 or higher – your shutter moves a lot from one photo to the next, going from its dormant wide-open state to the smaller size of your chosen aperture – the higher the f/stop, the more it moves.

    3. The 50/1.8 is a mk 1 will the II is cheap enough - I don't like the plastic


    1. OK sorry to hear that. If you choose to use the Lens Twist Method, then maybe use GAF tape.
    2. OK – I Understand.
    3. If you have a EF 50/1.8(MkI) then you have the better of the two versions – and I bet you have had it for a long time.

    I was thinking about your quest as I was driving back to the office – freeway driving can be very therapeutic . . .

    Re the lens twist method . . .
    I was wondering as an alternative the “lens stop down method” would be useful for time lapse images.
    This method is used when an EF lens is mounted on an extension tube or bellows that does not have electrical connectivity to the camera.

    The method:
    Use the DoF preview to stop the lens down to required aperture.
    Holding the DoF preview in simultaneously release the lens.
    Lens stays stopped down.
    (at this point we now mount the lens on the tube or bellows which has no electrical connectivity to the camera – provided the camera and kens never make electric contact, the lens will remain stopped down)
    So for Time Lapse, I was thinking to use the same method and before remounting the lens on the camera, to tape over the contacts.

    Perhaps that is an idea to consider: I have never tried it – just thought of it now.

    WW

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    Re: working distance chart

    I have 3 different bellows set-ups - all are older versions - one by novoflex they can't / won't sell parts for - At the time it broke I was still working and had the machinist make me the part . I have a set of earlier kenko tubes and an EF 25 - none fit EFS lenses . All have contacts .
    Yes , the 50 is old and has served me well .
    I think adding tubes or bellows will magnify images but cut down on the DOF .
    I tried the f stop method - never go it to lock on . I just got some older lenses with the adapter and set to f stop . I really don't remember if I used the Elan or the XTI - just it was not what I wanted .
    Was reading up on flash at POTN , not much help , so I will keep looking there too .

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    William W's Avatar
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    Re: working distance chart

    To be clear: I was NOT suggesting that either tubes or bellows should be used for your Time Lapse Photography of the Flower.

    I was just describing a method of how you might keep any EF lens stopped down at any set aperture, for the whole of the Time Lapse shoot.

    WW

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    tonyjr's Avatar
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    Re: working distance chart

    Thanks , I was just trying to say I have tried that before . [ not for time lapse ] I was looking for DOF in macro - Lord V on POTN has a big post on reversing lenses on another lens for more DOF .
    In my case at that time I was trying to get one of my rose brushes covered with aphids and lady bugs eating them . For me another learning exercise that did not work
    Probably 90% of what you write and I write - MAY [ may and probably in same sentence — hope you ain't an english teacher ] will be used by others to understand time lapse better .
    There are books on almost everything except time lapse , B & W enlargement , flash for time lapse and rainbows . At least I have not found any .
    I do appreciate you taking time to explain your thoughts and ideas - I know when I try to explain to someone else about things , I understand it better .
    I looked last night and could not find my manual on the Quantum turbo battery - it's been on charge for 2 days on just one yellow light - battery may be on it's way to heaven - another search on net .

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    William W's Avatar
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    Re: working distance chart

    Understood all you wrote.
    It is sometimes difficult to grasp exact meaning until one gets to know the writing style.

    working distance chart
    “Pot of Gold”
    © 2008 WMW AJ Group P/L AUS

    Good books including interesting formulae for solutions:
    The Morgan and Morgan Darkroom Book (1980) Pub: Motrgan and Morgan Inc.
    The Ilford Manual of Photography (1958) and (1971) Pub: Focal Press
    Early editions of Henley's Formulas are interesting also.

    Standout is, The Print (1983)

    No, I am not an English Teacher; nor am I a Teacher of English.

    Please let us know how this quest turns out and post a link to the results . . . and all the best with your new knee(s).


    WW
    Last edited by William W; 23rd May 2012 at 09:17 PM.

  18. #18
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    Re: working distance chart

    Will do .
    I ordered another battery for the Quantum flash .
    This morning I checked again , no buds forming yet .
    On the 6th of June I go in for a pre op on right knee . The surgery is on the 19th . It was around the last of April before I was carrying anything besides the walker - so hopefully I can get it done by then .

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