Helpful Posts Helpful Posts:  0
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 31

Thread: Differences between ACR and DPP

  1. #1
    arith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Burton on Trent, UK
    Posts
    4,786
    Real Name
    Steve

    Differences between ACR and DPP

    I have become concerned by the difference in white balance in Adobe Camera Raw v6.6 and Digital Photo Professional v3.9.3.0.

    I have frequently had a yellow cast reported and now I'm unsure of the correct balance; but think DPP wins.

    These are processed as close as possible, the top one in ACR and the bottom in DPP.

    Which if any is right?

    Differences between ACR and DPP

    Differences between ACR and DPP

  2. #2
    Moderator GrumpyDiver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    12,110
    Real Name
    Manfred Mueller

    Re: Differences between ACR and DPP

    I've discussed this with a number of professional photographers and have heard similar issues with Nikon ViewNX2 versus ACR as well. The consensus position is that the camera manufacturer software is likely to give you the best results because:

    1. ACR is a general program and handles many different cameras, so Adobe is likely to have made some simplifying considerations when they built their software so their conversions may not be quite as good as dedicated software; and

    2. The camera manufacturers have not necessarily shared all of their proprietary camera information with Adobe, so while ACR is close, the manufacturers software should be bang on.

    Regardless, I know at least a couple of pros that convert all of their raw files with manufacturers software into TIFF format before working on them in Photoshop, and never use ACR for any critical work.

  3. #3
    arith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Burton on Trent, UK
    Posts
    4,786
    Real Name
    Steve

    Re: Differences between ACR and DPP

    I think I will have to do the conversion in DPP Manfred. Thankyou.

  4. #4
    thatguyfromvienna's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Vienna, Austria
    Posts
    102
    Real Name
    Alexander Rose

    Re: Differences between ACR and DPP

    It might be my eyes or my screen but the upper one to me appears to have a light red cast while the lower is greenish.

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    South Devon, UK
    Posts
    11,260

    Re: Differences between ACR and DPP

    Quote Originally Posted by thatguyfromvienna View Post
    It might be my eyes or my screen but the upper one to me appears to have a light red cast while the lower is greenish.
    Yes that was my thoughts, although I would be tempted to say more yellow than green.

  6. #6
    arith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Burton on Trent, UK
    Posts
    4,786
    Real Name
    Steve

    Re: Differences between ACR and DPP

    They are different Alexander; but both are set on the same grey card. I cannot see a way to get from one to the other without setting a different colour balance.

    I think DPP is closest, but until now I've exclusively used ACR confused by the yellow cast.

    I've not heard mention of the cast before this year, and it might be a Windows 7 thing.

    (I've only just discovered the camera DVD discs by accident when I checked the box; thinking I would never have DPP again because updates require the older version to be present, and the version on my old pc is 32 bit updated from an older camera.)

  7. #7
    The Blue Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Manchester
    Posts
    787
    Real Name
    Mark Fleming

    Re: Differences between ACR and DPP

    We've only recently had a very similar conversation about this very subject RE Capture NX. It's the same issue.

  8. #8
    The Blue Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Manchester
    Posts
    787
    Real Name
    Mark Fleming

    Re: Differences between ACR and DPP

    Just looked at my above post and it makes me look tetchy. Sorry.

    Steve, ACR is reading the raw file at it's base level. That's what the camera "saw". All the tweaking is left to you. If indeed there is a colour cast to the picture, it was there in the first place. Remember, what we see is different to what the camera can record.

    What DPP is doing is adding the camera tweaks to the image that the maker* would recommend.

    *Would have put manufacturer but I can't spell it.


  9. #9

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    17,662
    Real Name
    Have a guess :)

    Re: Differences between ACR and DPP

    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver View Post
    ACR is a general program and handles many different cameras, so Adobe is likely to have made some simplifying considerations when they built their software so their conversions may not be quite as good as dedicated software; and
    Hi Manfred,

    It doesn't work that way I'm afraid. Although ACR caters for many different cameras (as does DPP), they create a custom profile for each and every make and model that they support.

    The camera manufacturers have not necessarily shared all of their proprietary camera information with Adobe, so while ACR is close, the manufacturers software should be bang on
    Even if this were true, it still doesn't take into account variences between individual samples of a given model, nor the different colour characteristics of different lenses (eg an EF85mm F1.2L has different colouring to a EF 24-70 F2.8L). Any pro worth his salt would be using a custom camera colour profile for the camera / lens / lighting that he's using.

    @ Steve - Steve, Adobe provide a number of profiles for you to choose from when you convert a file - which did you use?

    Also, DPP will honour picture styles - so the image will more than likely have been tweaked with regards to saturation, contrast etc depending on the picture style set at the time of capture - so you're really comparing apples with oranges.

    Edit: Just had a closer look at these - the DPP version appears to have a significant loss of contrast at the top and where the green transitions to the other colour on the left.
    Last edited by Colin Southern; 13th April 2012 at 10:01 PM.

  10. #10
    Momo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    177
    Real Name
    Darren

    Re: Differences between ACR and DPP

    I can tell you guys right now that, in terms of Nikon cameras and software, Capture NX2 blows both Lightroom and ACR out of the water in terms of correcting white balance. I work in IR (infra-red) and when I can't get the white balance corrected in the camera I have to turn to software. Nikon's Capture NX2 nails it dead on. So, I would lean towards the camera manufacturer's software to get it right.

  11. #11
    The Blue Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Manchester
    Posts
    787
    Real Name
    Mark Fleming

    Re: Differences between ACR and DPP

    I can tell you guys right now that, in terms of Nikon cameras and software, Capture NX2 blows both Lightroom and ACR out of the water in terms of correcting white balance. I work in IR (infra-red) and when I can't get the white balance corrected in the camera I have to turn to software. Nikon's Capture NX2 nails it dead on. So, I would lean towards the camera manufacturer's software to get it right.
    It's not a question of white balance. It's about selection of software to camera profiles.

    I work in IR (infra-red) and when I can't get the white balance corrected in the camera I have to turn to software. Nikon's Capture NX2 nails it dead on.
    I'm not quite sure of white balance in an infra-red photo would show as. Would be interested!

  12. #12
    Moderator GrumpyDiver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    12,110
    Real Name
    Manfred Mueller

    Re: Differences between ACR and DPP

    Again Colin, I was only passing on some information given to me by a long-time pro (actually two long-time pros). The comment I got from them is that they could not get the colours to come out right with ACR, and the procedure I listed is what one of them recommended.

    I don't necessarily agree with your conclusion; having a different profile for each camera (better yet each camera and lens combination) is good, BUT only if the algorithm that is used actually accurately replicates the results of the ones developed by the camera manufacturers. I assume that Adobe has licenced the relevant information from the various camera manufacturers, each of which would have developed their own data structure and algorithms. Adobe would create a single algorithm and multiple profiles as it would be far to expensive and difficult to maintain multiple code bases for each different camera brand. So, while it may produced fairly good results, there is no possibility that it will be an exact match for what the camera manufacturer's software does. This code base is shared between ACR and Lightroom, so results should be similar with both of these tools.

    The bottom line is while the Adobe software is extremely good, there may be instances where one will want to use the camera manufacture's software instead.

  13. #13

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    17,662
    Real Name
    Have a guess :)

    Re: Differences between ACR and DPP

    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver View Post
    having a different profile for each camera (better yet each camera and lens combination) is good, BUT only if the algorithm that is used actually accurately replicates the results of the ones developed by the camera manufacturers. I assume that Adobe has licenced the relevant information from the various camera manufacturers, each of which would have developed their own data structure and algorithms. Adobe would create a single algorithm and multiple profiles as it would be far to expensive and difficult to maintain multiple code bases for each different camera brand. So, while it may produced fairly good results, there is no possibility that it will be an exact match for what the camera manufacturer's software does.
    Hi Manfred,

    Unfortunately, that's based on the assumption that the manufacturers package always sets the "standard" which I feel (a) is a dangerous assumption at best, but (b) in reality it just doesn't translate through to better colour reproduction (or a better photograph) because there are too many variables along the way that the camera manufacturer just can't account for. Put that another way, if you use a standard manufacturer profile - swap lenses - change lighting - even change cameras - and you'll get different colour reproduction each time.

    Adobe create their own dual illuminant profiles for each model of camera ACR supports (so no need to licence anything etc - it's actually quite a simple process); one shot under Standard Illuminant A lighting (2856 kelvin), and the other D65 (daylight) light source and then interpolate and extrapolate between them for different colour temperatures (something others don't do as far as I'm aware, unless they've caught up in the past 18 months or so) which is then used as the basis for the preset profiles they provide, but for greater accuracy, one MUST produce their own profiles based on individual camera / lens / lighting combinations, which are far more accurate (one only has to step through them all whilst looking at skin tones).

    The bottom line is that if one wants accurate and repeatable colour then the process starts with a custom profile (which) I doubt DPP would support.

  14. #14
    arith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Burton on Trent, UK
    Posts
    4,786
    Real Name
    Steve

    Re: Differences between ACR and DPP

    I'm a bit confused; thinking using a grey card guaranteed colour accuracy but obviously from above it doesn't, adding corrections for lens and type of subject.

    I always shoot RAW and the biggest RAW without anything embeded using the big M on neutral; prefering to avoid all that complicated profile stuff and thought it was corrected in the computer during PP, obviously not and I can even get the ACR version set in custom by altering Tone and Saturation in DPP.

    So it is all a matter of preference and I may as well not use a grey card at all.
    Differences between ACR and DPP

    Thanks to everybody who replied.

  15. #15
    Glenn NK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Victoria BC
    Posts
    1,510

    Re: Differences between ACR and DPP

    Quote Originally Posted by arith View Post
    I'm a bit confused; thinking using a grey card guaranteed colour accuracy but obviously from above it doesn't, adding corrections for lens and type of subject.

    I always shoot RAW and the biggest RAW without anything embeded using the big M on neutral; prefering to avoid all that complicated profile stuff and thought it was corrected in the computer during PP, obviously not and I can even get the ACR version set in custom by altering Tone and Saturation in DPP.

    So it is all a matter of preference and I may as well not use a grey card at all.
    Differences between ACR and DPP

    Thanks to everybody who replied.
    A very interesting discussion. I'd like to add my two cents worth, but it's probably not even worth one cent.

    Several years ago, I bought a white balance tool. Aside from the fact that it was a nuisance, I soon realized that more often than not, what was more important was getting the image to "look appealing". Some might term this the creative aspect of photography.

    The colour sensitivity of human eyes varies widely among individuals. I have a friend that is somewhat red/green colour blind; my wife doesn't recognize the same subtle differences that I can, and so on.

    For my friend, a white balance tool would be essential, for others, it could be a severe limitation on creativity.

    On the very specific case of flower images, nature provides some large variations in one particular species:

    http://www.calflora.net/bloomingplan...olatelily.html

    They grow in a park across the street from where I live - they ARE NOT purplish - they are more brown and have yellow splashes on the petals. Should I change the balance to make them more purple? Or should I make them look attractive to viewers?

    There are cases where colour balance is critical. Use the tool.

    I still carry the tool in my bag, but haven't used it for four years, and then only for a few weeks.

    Glenn

  16. #16
    arith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Burton on Trent, UK
    Posts
    4,786
    Real Name
    Steve

    Re: Differences between ACR and DPP

    It is actually a hard tool to use Glenn; in the dark with the light source immediately to the front for instance. Recently whenever I've faithfully used the grey card in ACR I've had comments about a yellow cast; I'm almost colour blind and found auto correcting colours to be a more accurate rendition from the comments.

    So why bother with a grey card at all. I suppose it could be useful where there is a mix of types of light, but it is still a bit annoying to not have an accurate reference point.

  17. #17

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    17,662
    Real Name
    Have a guess :)

    Re: Differences between ACR and DPP

    Quote Originally Posted by arith View Post
    I'm a bit confused; thinking using a grey card guaranteed colour accuracy but obviously from above it doesn't, adding corrections for lens and type of subject.
    Hi Steve,

    White balancing and colour correction are related, but seperate things.

    White balancing removes colour casts (a bias applied to the entire image due to the colour temperature of the illuminant(s)), but the colour of what's left assumes perfect colour response and, although it's usually very close (in fact usually close enough), it's never perfect -- and that's where colour profiling kicks in.

    Perhaps a good analogy might be a car manufacturer who assembles car parts into finished vehicles. They buy the speedos from "Acme Speedo Manufacturing Co." - and once they install them they adjust the calibration so that when the vehicle is doing 100 km/hr that's what the speedo says (eg white balancing where one area is specifically adjusted to be exactly what it should be) (the grey card). Now IN THEORY - if it's a quality device and everything is working as it should then if it's right at 100 then it should be right at 80, 50, 30, 10 km/hr etc as well - but in practice it will NEVER be perfect; when it reads exactly 50 km/hr the actual vehicle speed might be 49, 51, 49.99 etc. Same with cameras (except you have 3 channels to deal with). So all that the colour profiling is doing is creating a correction table (it knows what it SHOULD BE from a specific profile chart - it knows what it IS (from the shot captured - thus it's a relatively simple matter to produce a translation table that appropriately adjusts the values). So if the number for a particular colour should be - say - 30, 60, 90 - but they measure as 28, 63, 92, it feeds in a correction that takes them from what they are back to what they should be (30, 60, 90).

    In reality you always white balance first - after that it's the colour correction - and after that it's tweaking things to taste (the human eye doesn't work the same as a camera - so even after colour correction, memory colours like skin tones often look a little over-saturated and a little cool -- so they're subsequently desaturated slightly and warmed slightly to produce a final result).

    Hope this helps.

  18. #18
    Moderator GrumpyDiver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    12,110
    Real Name
    Manfred Mueller

    Re: Differences between ACR and DPP

    Colin – I again let’s agree to disagree on this one. You feel that it is not in the best interest of the camera manufacturer to provide the end user with the best possible image? Sorry, in this competitive marketplace, especially at the high end, the camera manufacturers are going to do their utmost to provide a product that works well to its customers. They have every reason to do this, and no reason at all not to.

    You are suggesting that Adobe, by reverse engineering the camera output, will be able to produce a better result than the engineering teams at Canon, Nikon and others camera manufacturers who have designed and built the camera and its components and systems? Nicely said, there is no way this is technically possible.

    The camera manufacturers have the performance characteristics of their sensor figured out before the final tape out. This includes the response curves under a host of different lighting / exposure conditions. As you pointed out, the performance characteristics are not linear. Once you have this data, it’s quite simple to design the algorithms to interpret the data out of the camera and build it into software like Capture NX2 or Digital Photo Professional. If your white balance is right, your overall colours have to be correct.

    If you don’t use the curves that the camera manufacturers have, you are correct; getting white balance alone is not always going to be good enough, and some of the colours could be off. Profiling is one way of improving overall colour accuracy. By the way, we design engineers refer to this approach as a “kludge”. It’s not elegant and has some shortcomings, but is often “good enough”.

  19. #19

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    17,662
    Real Name
    Have a guess :)

    Re: Differences between ACR and DPP

    Hi Manfred,

    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver View Post
    You feel that it is not in the best interest of the camera manufacturer to provide the end user with the best possible image? Sorry, in this competitive marketplace, especially at the high end, the camera manufacturers are going to do their utmost to provide a product that works well to its customers. They have every reason to do this, and no reason at all not to.
    No that's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is that DPP (being a low-end give-away package) doesn't (to the best of my knowledge) have the ability to go beyond the manufacturer supplied base profile for the camera model - therefore it can't be tweaked to compensate for other factors such as lighting, lenses, and individual sensor response characteristics that ACR can, and thus can not be made as accurate.

    You are suggesting that Adobe, by reverse engineering the camera output, will be able to produce a better result than the engineering teams at Canon, Nikon and others camera manufacturers who have designed and built the camera and its components and systems? Nicely said, there is no way this is technically possible.

    The camera manufacturers have the performance characteristics of their sensor figured out before the final tape out. This includes the response curves under a host of different lighting / exposure conditions. As you pointed out, the performance characteristics are not linear. Once you have this data, it’s quite simple to design the algorithms to interpret the data out of the camera and build it into software like Capture NX2 or Digital Photo Professional. If your white balance is right, your overall colours have to be correct.

    If you don’t use the curves that the camera manufacturers have, you are correct; getting white balance alone is not always going to be good enough, and some of the colours could be off. Profiling is one way of improving overall colour accuracy. By the way, we design engineers refer to this approach as a “kludge”. It’s not elegant and has some shortcomings, but is often “good enough”.
    Again, no. There's no need to reverse engineer anything. It's a relatively trivial matter to control what the camera sees (the input) and the output of that controlled input is delivered to us on a plate by the camera in the form of a RAW capture on the memory card. Sensor performance data isn't a secret, and creating profiles (fancy word for sensor response translation tables) isn't rocket science -- I build them myself quite regularly -- and I'd bet you a chocolate fish that they're more accurate than an out of the box DPP conversion because I'll be compensating for variables that I can assure you have a small but none-the-less very visible effect on the image. Shoot a GretagMacbeth colour checker card with an EF24-70mm F2.8L USM and an EF85mm F1.2L USM - white balance both with DPP - measure the colour patches - and I can personally guarantee you that you'll get slightly different colours. I even get different colour characteristics when I change from an Elinchrom soft-box to a 3rd party one. Sensor response isn't the only variable, but it's the only one DPP can take into account.

    If the question is "which offeres a more faithful conversion DPP or ACR?" (without custom profiles) then it becomes a "how long is a piece of string" type question. By default (and I don't even know if it can be turned off), DPP carries through picture styles; so if you have picture styles set correctly for a studio portrait shoot in the morning - go landscape shooting in the afternoon and forget to change it - then chances are you default conversion won't be as accurate as an ACR one with a landscape profile selected. If the picture style was set correctly then that will give a different result under DPP to one where picture styles are set to neutral - and an other where the famera is set to faithful (which is one of the reasons I hate it -- one just never knows where the true baseline is).
    Last edited by Colin Southern; 15th April 2012 at 06:37 AM.

  20. #20
    arith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Burton on Trent, UK
    Posts
    4,786
    Real Name
    Steve

    Re: Differences between ACR and DPP

    My camera is set to Adobe RGB and Neutral profile Colin.The file is set to RAW and temperature to custom 5600K, I do not know how to change the profile.

    Just found out that ACR is fixed on Adobe Standard Profile; which is something else I haven't touched.

    This image looked perfectly alright to me until a yellow cast was pointed out; I'm not very good at seeing colour.

    Differences between ACR and DPP

    Differences between ACR and DPP

    I really need to have an accurate colour, because I cannot easily see a colour cast as illustrated here:

    Differences between ACR and DPP

    Therefore I think I have to trust people to point out colour imperfections.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •