Printing with PSE 8

Hi
I am looking for some advice as to what settings to use when printing photos in Elements 8.
When printing, I am offered a range of alternative settings starting with the "Print" window under Edit.
From here I go to "More Options" then on to "Color Management" then to "Printer Profile".
From here I am offerred a further range of options, including my MP990 printer mentioned 6 times with PR1 through to PR3 and PT1 through to PT3 along with many other alternatives most of which are unrelated to my printer. I dont know which of these I should be selecting.
I have already selected the correct printing paper.
I have recently calbibrated my monitor and the Printer Profile window shows an option that identifies the Monitor Profile, which is now my computers default setting.
Is this the Profile I should be using when printing, now that I have a calibrated monitor?
If not why is it listed and what do all the MP990 options mean?
I need help on this one as you can see!
Thanks
Graham

Hi Graham,

I'm not a Photoshop Elements user, but it'll be the same principles as Photoshop.

In terms of profiles, having your Spyder-created monitor profile set as your default monitor profile is correct, but it's NOT correct to use this as a printer profile. Basically, a profile adjusts for the differences between the colour initially requested, and the colour the device puts out by default in response to that request (so it's really nothing more than a "correction table"), but it is specific to the device it was created for (in this case the monitor, not the printer).

For printing, you need a printer profile; if you have a spectrophotometer with your Spyder kit then you can use this to make your own, otherwise you'll need to either have one made for you, or use a generic profile; just remember that a printer profile is specific to a printer + media + media settings + inkset combination. In "theory" a custom profile works best, but in "practice", generic profiles may well be close enough for good results.

Not sure why you have so many printer/printer profiles listed - someone else might be able to chip in here?

In short though, you need to set the printer for the right kind of paper - tell Photoshop to use the correct profile - and (VERY important) - tell the printer not to make any colour corrections (as these are being done by Photoshop).

Hope this helps with at least some of your questions!

Hi Colin
Thanks for your reply.
I wonder why the Monitor Profile is listed under the Printer Profile options? Seems a bit strange.
Lets hope someone is able to explain what all the other variations of the MP990 printer profiles actually mean.
Yes I am at least able to set the correct paper profile and I am able to exclude the printer from the equation under the Elements print menu so thats a start.
Thanks
Graham

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Originally Posted by Graham Ferguson

Hi Colin

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Hi Graham,

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Thanks for your reply.

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You're very welcome :)

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I wonder why the Monitor Profile is listed under the Printer Profile options? Seems a bit strange.

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Not really - the system doesn't differentiate between .icc profiles, and puts them all in the one place.

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Lets hope someone is able to explain what all the other variations of the MP990 printer profiles actually mean.

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If they really are profiles, then they'll probably just be for other media types. If you're not creating your own custom profiles then there's no harm in just trying each of these to see if any give you "close enough" results. Epson do a similar thing, like PLPP260 stands for Premium Lustre Photo Paper 260gsm".

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Originally Posted by Graham Ferguson

Hi
I am looking for some advice as to what settings to use when printing photos in Elements 8.
When printing, I am offered a range of alternative settings starting with the "Print" window under Edit.
From here I go to "More Options" then on to "Color Management" then to "Printer Profile".
From here I am offerred a further range of options, including my MP990 printer mentioned 6 times with PR1 through to PR3 and PT1 through to PT3 along with many other alternatives most of which are unrelated to my printer. I dont know which of these I should be selecting.
I have already selected the correct printing paper.
I have recently calbibrated my monitor and the Printer Profile window shows an option that identifies the Monitor Profile, which is now my computers default setting.
Is this the Profile I should be using when printing, now that I have a calibrated monitor?
If not why is it listed and what do all the MP990 options mean?
I need help on this one as you can see!
Thanks
Graham

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Hi Graham

PSE8 lists ALL ICC profiles in your system - print, monitor, abstract etc - in the list it offers in the print dialogue. As you say, many of them are irrelevant to printing. Silly, but there you go.

As Colin says, ignore your monitor profile in PSE's print dialogue and select the appropriate one of the profiles associated with your printer's name. The cryptic letters and numbers relate to the media type and quality setting you're using. For different printers, not all options are available:

PR1 Photo Paper Pro (Quality Setting 1)
PR2 Photo Paper Pro (Quality Setting 2)
SP1 Photo Paper Plus glossy (Quality Setting 1)
SP2 Photo Paper Plus (Quality Setting 2)
MP1 Matte Paper (Quality Setting 1)
SG1 Photo Paper Plus Semi-Gloss (Quality Setting 1)
Numbers appended to the name, e.g. Canon Pro9000 PR1 or Canon Pro9000 GL3, refer to the print quality, with 1 the highest quality.

Select the ICC profile appropriate to the paper you're using. That determines the appropriate proportions of inks that will be laid down to get your colours right. You still have to select the media type again in the printer driver because that setting tells the driver how much ink to lay down accounting for the absorbency characteristics of the paper.

Cheers

Tim

Thanks Tim,

A fellow Kiwi to the rescue!

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Originally Posted by Macmahon

You still have to select the media type again in the printer driver because that setting tells the driver how much ink to lay down accounting for the absorbency characteristics of the paper.

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This is something that I like to point out to folks when creating and using profiles, as often folks forget. If one prints a set of target patches using, say, a media setting for thin glossy paper - creates a profile - and then uses that profile with the printer set to something like canvas, then all bets are off.

Hi
Thanks Tim and Colin.
Its begining to make some sense. The real test will be the next lot of prints I make!
I see on some sites that GL is for Plus GlossyII which is what I am using and is also available as a paper profile with the MP990 printer.
I will need to do some test prints soon I think.
Graham

No Worries Graham,

Probably easiest to just have a custom profile made once you settle on a standard paper for your prints.

Hi Colin
I am back on this issue again since I am still not happy with my results. You suggest making a custom profile but I dont know how. Any assistance would be helpfull.
Graham

Hi Graham,

It involves print targets being printed - those targets being scanned using a spectrophotometer - and the resultant data turned into a profile (fancy word for translation table) so that the colour "requested" by PSE is translated into the colour you actually wanted in the first place.

Two ways to do this -- either buy the equipment youself (eg a Spyder III studio Elite kit) or use a commercial profiling service.

Hi Colin
Thanks for your reply. I seem to be half way towards your solution since I already have a Spyder3 for the monitor so now just need the second half! Maybe later.
Graham

You're welcome Graham,

Unfortunately, Colour Management is a bit like being "a little pregnant" - one either has to do it all, or nothing (past a certain point anyway).

Colin
Guess I dont want to be a "little pregnant" and do need to go the whole way.
Since I already have the Spyder 3 Elite is their printer profiler acceptable or would you recommend an alternative?
Graham

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Originally Posted by Graham Ferguson

Colin
Guess I dont want to be a "little pregnant" and do need to go the whole way.
Since I already have the Spyder 3 Elite is their printer profiler acceptable or would you recommend an alternative?
Graham

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Hi Graham,

It works fine for me :)

Thanks Colin,
I now have a calibrated monitor and printer ( Spyder 3 Elite/Spyder Print SR ) and I am using the relavent profiles when printing. I am still disapointed in the result when printing. I am begining to think the Holy Grail of colour management is a cruel joke!
When I was creating my first new printer profile the target verses the scan looked quite different on some of the patches so I was hopefull the new profile I was creating would give me a print that was more representative of the monitor image.
In the end the difference was only small.
Too dark and not as vibrant as the monitor in respect of colours. I accept that there is a difference between the light emiting monitor and the light reflecting print but the difference between the final print and the on screen image was significant.
I can see that I can adjust any given profile I create and wonder how often, in your experience, you need to alter each new profile in order to fine tune it?
I can see I can increase or decrease the brightness for instance but I am concerned that in doing so I will also alter the colours. Is that likely?
Also I get the oportunity to soft proof the Datacolor test image but wonder if there is some way of being able to soft proof one of my own images at that point of the profile making procedure? I only have Elements and that wont allow soft proofing when printing, as far as I know.
I must say that the test image printed well and looked acceptable but my own images were disapointing.
I see in another post you dont use Saturation when printing even though this is the Datacolour default recommendation. What is the reasoning behind that?
I think I am making some progress but it is a truely frustrating journey.
Thanks for your tips thus far.
Graham

Hi Graham,

Now the fun begins :)

Seriously, I think we're going to have to double-check a few things ...

1. Did you do a nozzle check before printing the patches? If not, might pay to do one now to make sure that the patches aren't getting mis-printed (it's a printer feature that checks the nozzles individually).

2. Is your display profile setup correctly? It needs to be setup for the operating system to use, but you don't specify it anywhere from within PS / PSE

3. Are you using the correct profile when you print?

4. Are you telling the printer NOT to manage colours (only PSE)?

Few other things ...

When you scan the patches, be careful not to go too fast - if you lift the spectro before the scan is finished you'll get a mis-read.

Be careful what you scan on - if the paper is thin it'll shine through and be influenced by the surface you're scanning on

Are you exceeting the gamut of the device - try converting to sRGB first.

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I can see that I can adjust any given profile I create and wonder how often, in your experience, you need to alter each new profile in order to fine tune it?

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Only with canvas, with has an unsprayed black point of 25 and a sprayed one of 17 - so if I don't tweak the profile then I end up with everything printing too light. You may need to tweak it, but I'd be surprised. First thing I'd like to check is the source image though - can you send me one that you're having trouble with (just as you're trying to print it)?

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Also I get the oportunity to soft proof the Datacolor test image but wonder if there is some way of being able to soft proof one of my own images at that point of the profile making procedure? I only have Elements and that wont allow soft proofing when printing, as far as I know.

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Not that I'm aware of, although I'm not a PSE user.

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I see in another post you dont use Saturation when printing even though this is the Datacolour default recommendation. What is the reasoning behind that?

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Relative Colorimetric is all I use approx 100% of the time - I'd suggest (strongly) sticking with that for now, just to make sure it's not masking another problem.

Have you got a copy of Real World Colour Management 2nd edition yet?

Hi Colin

Thanks for your prompt reply.

Some answers

1/ As far as I know the printer carries out a self clean every time it is turned on and when it is left on it does a clean every 72 hours. I did print the two checks suggested at the begining of the profiling proceedure and both of those look OK as far as I can tell. ie no obvious errors. One starts at the top with a row of colours across the page which fade to very faint, from top to bottom. The other simply shows a range of colour rectangles and some images from the test screen. All look OK with no missing or odd looking outputs.

2/ Yes the monitor profile is my default profile and I dont apply it anywhere when running PSE.

3/ Yes. I have a specific name for the profile and select it at all the various steps when printing. Interestingly when I first printed the patches I had forgotten to set the printer to " None " in respect of "Matching" and as a result had to reprint them with the correct setting turned on but I cant detect any difference between the two printouts of 225 patches.

4/ Yes. I understand this requirement but see above re patch printing.

5/ Pretty sure I got no miss reads with the patches. As you can see I have done it twice now so am reasonably practiced.

6/ I used about 6 pages of A4 photocopy paper under my patch prints to avoid any problems in that regard.

7/ All my images are sRGB?

8/ I am interested that you use Relative when the Datacolour recommendation is Saturated? Also I understood Perceptual is most suitable when a full range of colour is being printed.

9/ What is the best way for me to send you my image?

10/ No I have not bought the book since what I have read so far is often heavy going so the book may well be beyond me!

ps Re the Partly Pregnant referrance I think I am suffering from Morning Sickness apart from the fact I have got it all day if I am thinking of printing!!

Graham

Hi Graham,

Let me look at the image first - I think that might be a good place to start.

Just pop along to www.sendthisfile.com - create a free account - "send the file" to yourself, and then copy/paste the download link into a PM to me, and I'll take a look at it.

Thanks Colin

"PM"? What is that?
By the way when I review my target verses the measured patches there is quite a big difference and when I review what I printed they all look very close to what the screen looks like for the measured file. Wouldnt that suggest that the printer is working properly with the new profile even though they are different from the pure patches?

Thanks

Graham

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Originally Posted by Graham Ferguson

Thanks Colin

"PM"? What is that?
By the way when I review my target verses the measured patches there is quite a big difference and when I review what I printed they all look very close to what the screen looks like for the measured file. Wouldnt that suggest that the printer is working properly with the new profile even though they are different from the pure patches?

Thanks

Graham

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Hi Graham,

PM = Private Message

Possibly, but the technologies are as different as chauk and cheese - and nothing says that the monitor is even capable of reproducing the required colour. Don't forget that it's not so much a case of the prints matching the screen as it is the printer being profiled to a known standard and the monitor being profiled to a known standard - if there's any variance from that standard (which there will be) then the two won't match perfectly - in reality it's always a case of just getting them as close as possible.

Part of the problem is that colour saturation changes with brightness (in the computer world anyway) - if levels aren't right then saturation won't be right - so that's the first part we need to look at.

BTW, I too get noticeable variances between target and scanned colours.